Aguilar - Official 'Tone Hammer 500' 3.8lbs 500w Thread #3

[Echovox]

I had the Orange TB500 before I bought my Tone Hammer 500. The reason for the switch was strictly that the Orange had burned up on me 3 times and I had to have it repaired.
The Tone Hammer is made like a tank and I have had not one problem with it.
The best selling point is that the TH500 is made here in the good old USA, while the TB500 is made in China.
Tone wise I could get pretty similar tones out of both heads, but the TH500 definitely has more tonal options that the Orange lacked.

[astack]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

I have to disagree.

Fair enough There's definite overlap of what they do. Twist some knobs, and I think anyone happy with one would be happy with the other. My characterization was based on when they're set to noon across the board +/- i.e. what their baked in flavor is.

The TH with the gain and drive cranked gets pretty gnarly, but it's a mid-heavy snarl, and not the big-bottom, big upper-mids sound the orange gets when pushed with the scooped Fender stack. Hmm, actually, now I wanna go see if I can recreate that with the TH...

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by astack

Fair enough There's definite overlap of what they do. Twist some knobs, and I think anyone happy with one would be happy with the other. My characterization was based on when they're set to noon across the board +/- i.e. what their baked in flavor is.

The TH with the gain and drive cranked gets pretty gnarly, but it's a mid-heavy snarl, and not the big-bottom, big upper-mids sound the orange gets when pushed with the scooped Fender stack. Hmm, actually, now I wanna go see if I can recreate that with the TH...

Totally cool. I would also like to spend more time with a TH500. and that may very well happen since I want and need a more flexible DI out at times! Orange dropped the ball in that regard. No DI output level control? Seriously Orange?

[rodl2005]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Hey Rod,
I had heard that the Orange may not be good at loud and clear.
Do you find it to be buzzy in tone or will it clean up like the TH500 with lower gain and drive settings?
Lastly, when you say behaves more like a tube amp, are you referring to sag, distortion, or just overall tone?

It'll go REAL loud & dirty. I haven't tried it real loud & clear yet Will try that this Friday

It certainly cleans up fine, but as I say- haven't tried it really loud yet.

Lastly.... All 3 really. Has a bit of that "give/sag" & the tone is pretty similar to the AD200( MkIII IIRC ) I used a cuppla times. Distortion is pretty sweet too. Very snarly & not at all fizzy. I'd love to put a Different pre tube in.. Someone in the TB500 thread did with +ive results. Might sneak that in for a try B4 I give it back.. If I do

[speyer]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

The nod for a better DI out however clearly goes to the Aggie TH500.

I have heard the orange DI is nothing to write home about. Too bad... Cuz 80% of my gigs have FOH support. I look forward to comparing it to the th500 and WA.

[astack]

Obvious solution is the Orange with the TH pedal Though the thing with the DI on that head is overblown, ime.

[rodl2005]

I had no issues with the Orange's D.I. myself. I left it to our S.E. to adjust for F.O.H. & he didn't complain at all

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rodl2005

I had no issues with the Orange's D.I. myself. I left it to our S.E. to adjust for F.O.H. & he didn't complain at all

Yeah, I think Gary is running into a situation where he often plays with front of house support with a low end board with no input pad controls (I didn't even think those existed!).

In that rare case, a hot DI (I assume he is running post EQ) without a level control can cause an issue. I have not run into a front of house system that could support bass without a pad control in 20 years, so I think that is probably an unusual situation. I typically find level controls on DI' useless (per your comment), but in those strange situations of very low end or old mixing boards or cheap all in one 'PA heads', a level control could come in handy.

I always run pre EQ, so it is a totally moot point for me, but if you are cranking the gain of the Orange and running post EQ, that can be quite a wump of signal for a low end board.

[SpinyNorman]

Originally Posted by KJung

I'll sneak in here for another data point. I did not have my Walkabout at the same time as my TH500 (which I love).

Quite different. The TH500 is quite a bit louder at 4ohms (will not do 2ohms like the Walkabout). The low end is somehow bigger yet tighter, meaning much more forceful and 'hit you in the chest' but not as bloomy and extended (Mesa does very little hi passing of the low end of their amps). The top end of the Walkabout is definitely 'tube sweeter' than the TH500. The Walkabout can get 'cleaner and crisper' up top.

Interestingly, I find that I can get more tonal variation from the single semi-parametric mid control on the TH500 than the three (or four... can't remember) on the Walkabout. HUGELY powerful midrange control, which can take you from a tight burp all the way to a screaming upper mid grind in conjunction with the drive and gain controls.

I like both heads, but man, 4 pounds, uber reliability, no tubes to mess with, half the price, and louder.... forget about it

The biggest problem with a 3 band EQ is that when you're targeting the upper mids, you lose control of the low mids. The low mids and bass are very sensitive to minor adjustments, and have to be tuned together. If you change the mid frequency to the high mids to dial them in/out, you have to readjust the bass to compensate for the +/- change in the low mids.

I love the tone of the TH500, but IMHO it could use a 4 band EQ.

[GRoberts]

You are right Ken, the DI out on the Orange is a very HOT signal. Given a choice, I would run "Pre-EQ" on the DI Output as well. But I don't believe the Orange TB500 offers any options. I should check to see if there is an internal setting. I never really looked. Silly me.

There have been no issues however with any FOH boards at the clubs where I play. So the DI Out conversation is very very small and uncommon.

I joined a dance band late 2012 and they have a nice, but dated Yamaha mixing console which does not have any input pads. We have Mackie 18" Subs and Mackie powered mains. Its a nice PA otherwise. I found a way to compensate by using the Active Input pad on the Orange, so it's not a huge issue. But I've used many DI Outs on various 'current' amps over the past several years and they all seem to offer a Pre/Post switchable option at the very least, or a Variable level DI Out control.

Originally Posted by KJung

Yeah, I think Gary is running into a situation where he often plays with front of house support with a low end board with no input pad controls (I didn't even think those existed!).

In that rare case, a hot DI (I assume he is running post EQ) without a level control can cause an issue. I have not run into a front of house system that could support bass without a pad control in 20 years, so I think that is probably an unusual situation. I typically find level controls on DI' useless (per your comment), but in those strange situations of very low end or old mixing boards or cheap all in one 'PA heads', a level control could come in handy.

I always run pre EQ, so it is a totally moot point for me, but if you are cranking the gain of the Orange and running post EQ, that can be quite a wump of signal for a low end board.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

You are right Ken, the DI out on the Orange is a very HOT signal. Given a choice, I would run "Pre-EQ" on the DI Output as well. But I don't believe the Orange TB500 offers any options. I should check to see if there is an internal setting. I never really looked. Silly me.

There have been no issues however with any FOH boards at the clubs where I play. So the DI Out conversation is very very small and uncommon.

I joined a dance band late 2012 and they have a nice, but dated Yamaha mixing console which does not have any input pads. We have Mackie 18" Subs and Mackie powered mains. Its a nice PA otherwise. I found a way to compensate by using the Active Input pad on the Orange, so it's not a huge issue. But I've used many DI Outs on various 'current' amps over the past several years and they all seem to offer a Pre/Post switchable option at the very least, or a Variable level DI Out control.

Another option for you in that situation with the Yamaha is to just get a 'stepdown' transformer (or whatever they are called) for that situation. They look like the end of a mic cable, and will reduce the level to mic level I believe.

[Jim C]

Shure used to make a 10dB pad the one can insert between the amp and the mixer to lower the output level.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Shure used to make a 10dB pad the one can insert between the amp and the mixer to lower the output level.

I tried to search for one of those things and couldn't find an example. Someone posted a picture of one a few weeks ago somewhere.. king of looked like the male and female end of a mic cable fused together... like a torpedo...

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by KJung

I tried to search for one of those things and couldn't find an example. Someone posted a picture of one a few weeks ago somewhere.. king of looked like the male and female end of a mic cable fused together... like a torpedo...

I have a better solution.
A: have the band buy a better mixing console
B: Quit the band

I am actually leaning toward option B. LOL ..>Go figure. Seriously. I will play with this band for another couple months, but I'm moving on. I have more musically satisfying endeavors already off the ground. So the DI thing is not really a 'thing.' And I said, the clubs I play that had FOH support had no issues at all. It was just the one off ball, old mixing console.

[Jim C]

Originally Posted by KJung

I tried to search for one of those things and couldn't find an example. Someone posted a picture of one a few weeks ago somewhere.. king of looked like the male and female end of a mic cable fused together... like a torpedo...

http://www.frontendaudio.com/Shure-A...9999-01768.htm

Yup, XLR male and female with a pad in the middle
These do not mess with tone but do lower gain.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jim C

http://www.frontendaudio.com/Shure-A...9999-01768.htm

Yup, XLR male and female with a pad in the middle
These do not mess with tone but do lower gain.

That's it! Thanks!

Gary, that should take care of the Orange's hot output into that board with no pad.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

I have a better solution.
A: have the band buy a better mixing console
B: Quit the band

I am actually leaning toward option B. LOL ..>Go figure. Seriously. I will play with this band for another couple months, but I'm moving on. I have more musically satisfying endeavors already off the ground. So the DI thing is not really a 'thing.' And I said, the clubs I play that had FOH support had no issues at all. It was just the one off ball, old mixing console.

Well, that would work also

[Jim C]

Rehearsal Report
2 gtrs; bass, and drums (keybord player out of town)
1960 bone stock Pbass, TH 500, 2x15 cab loaded with Altecs
* Played about 15 songs last night
* Sounded very good with nearly flat EQ; the thickness of the mid range really shows up in the mix
* Ken you weren't kidding about the shy top end; dimed the treble knob during "Shakey Ground' and it still wasn't bright enough; will check this over the weekend with modern cabinets
* Adding mids made for a tone I'm not familiar with and probably don't like but it DID sit well; didn't record last night so no way to be 100% sure
* Also reinforced my dislike for much bass distortion and can't imagine having the gain and drive much past 12:00 as it's just not my thing
* During a break I cut mids (approx 9:00 cut with mid frequency at about 12:00); this got closer to the SWR amp that lives at rehearsal; it is really nice to have an amp that adds bass without tons of subsonic crap; it didn't take an A/B test for this to be obvious
* Had gain and drive at about 12:00; will experiment with this set up as well as pulling mids in the future; we were going over new original material so amp tweaking was not super high on my list
* So far very pleased although concerned about the lack of high end; also a bit frustrated with not completely understanding the interaction between tone, gain , & drive; I get the wooliness / distortion aspect but am not used to such large tonal differences based on either gain or drive settings
* Lots more to learn and I welcome any insght on what the heck happens with treble and bass vs. gain and drive settings; do they affect mids as well?

[GRoberts]

Thank you! Incredibly valuable feedback!

Originally Posted by Jim C

Rehearsal Report
2 gtrs; bass, and drums (keybord player out of town)
1960 bone stock Pbass, TH 500, 2x15 cab loaded with Altecs
* Played about 15 songs last night
* Sounded very good with nearly flat EQ; the thickness of the mid range really shows up in the mix
* Ken you weren't kidding about the shy top end; dimed the treble knob during "Shakey Ground' and it still wasn't bright enough; will check this over the weekend with modern cabinets
* Adding mids made for a tone I'm not familiar with and probably don't like but it DID sit well; didn't record last night so no way to be 100% sure
* Also reinforced my dislike for much bass distortion and can't imagine having the gain and drive much past 12:00 as it's just not my thing
* During a break I cut mids (approx 9:00 cut with mid frequency at about 12:00); this got closer to the SWR amp that lives at rehearsal; it is really nice to have an amp that adds bass without tons of subsonic crap; it didn't take an A/B test for this to be obvious
* Had gain and drive at about 12:00; will experiment with this set up as well as pulling mids in the future; we were going over new original material so amp tweaking was not super high on my list
* So far very pleased although concerned about the lack of high end; also a bit frustrated with not completely understanding the interaction between tone, gain , & drive; I get the wooliness / distortion aspect but am not used to such large tonal differences based on either gain or drive settings
* Lots more to learn and I welcome any insght on what the heck happens with treble and bass vs. gain and drive settings; do they affect mids as well?

[rodl2005]

I think u pretty much have to have the gain at 9 o'clock or lower, max out the master, & adjust drive down low (as it ain't really a standard "overdrive" control-very interactive with gain & mids)
Then pump up treble. This'll keep it pretty clean.

I play Shaky Ground too, I really like the muted tops outta the TH500 for this sorta song (& Larry Graham stuff too). I'm finding I'm doing a bit more "popping" as it's a funky top end rather than a splanky top end