Aguilar Tonehammer 500- New lightweight amp from Aguilar

[mattygbass]

Just got a newsletter from Aguilar, said they are unveiling a new leightweight amp called the tonehammer 500. does anyone know anything about these?


edit-nevermind just found another thread

[eastcoasteddie]

Usually, when you think you're the first....someone has already beat you to it....that's just how it goes on TB.

[B String]

I'm just guessing here but I'll say the front end is basically a Tonehammer, just not in a stomp box, paired with a light weight power section with 500 watts at 4 ohms.

This is just a guess. I've used a Tonehammer as a preamp using my AI Focus as a power amp. Worked quite well. This might be a nice little offering coming on the heels of the SL boxes that I thought sounded very good.

[Limeman]

Looks like they're also releasing a light-weight 112 cab. I always thought my GS112s were pretty light-weight, so the Tonehammer 500 and the new cab should be very interesting!

[bluzmakr]

My guess is that it's a tonehammer pre-amp combined with a Bang and olufsen Icepower 125asx2. All the bass amp manufacturers like the Genz-Benz shuttle 6.0, the SWR, and others are using the astounding 125asx2 since it is really easy to adapt that module to the personalized sound of whatever preamp you stick in front of it. I plugged my tonehammer into the effects return on my shuttle 6.0 to get an idea what the Tonehammer 500 would sound like. I gotta tell you its amazing. Punch, Power, and clarity.

[Aguilar/Dave B.]

Originally Posted by bluzmakr

My guess is that it's a tonehammer pre-amp combined with a Bang and olufsen Icepower 125asx2. All the bass amp manufacturers like the Genz-Benz shuttle 6.0, the SWR, and others are using the astounding 125asx2 since it is really easy to adapt that module to the personalized sound of whatever preamp you stick in front of it. I plugged my tonehammer into the effects return on my shuttle 6.0 to get an idea what the Tonehammer 500 would sound like. I gotta tell you its amazing. Punch, Power, and clarity.

You are right on about almost everything. We are using the Icepower 250asx module, the one found in the shuttle 9.0.

Hope this is helpful.

Dave B.

[12bass]

Originally Posted by Aguilar/Dave B.

You are right on about almost everything. We are using the Icepower 250asx module, the one found in the shuttle 9.0.

Interesting that Aguilar is using the larger ICEpower module in their 500 W rated amplifier. Please tell us more about why this choice was made.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by 12bass

Interesting that Aguilar is using the larger ICEpower module in their 500 W rated amplifier. Please tell us more about why this choice was made.

It is my understanding that the higher rated ICE module is meant for dual mono or stereo operation, 4ohms per side, or 8 ohm bridged operation. So, the 250x2 modules put out about the same power bridged into 8ohms as the 125 modules do bridged into 4ohms (like the Shuttle 6 and many other amps).

I guess Genz uses some fancy schmancy cooling, limiting and a few other things to allow the 250x250 module to run 2ohms per side (i.e., bridged into 4ohms), which accounts for their higher power rating (albeit at higher distortion levels). Those amps do hammer pretty well, although I find the 900 watt rating a bit 'exhuberant'!

Not sure what Ag is doing with this. Again, my layman's understanding of this is the 250x2 ICE module gives you wonderful 8ohm performance, but is not really meant to be used bridged to 4ohms (without some fancy schmancy protection, cooling and limiting). Obviously, a talented amp designer can do a lot of magic with this stuff!

Dave can set me straight on that! I've always found this topic interesting. With my 'know just enough to be dangerous' background, the only way I see them coming up with the specs that look more like the 2 x 125 module amps using the 2 x 250 power module is to maybe have the amps running in parallel, versus the more typical series bridged. I assume this would result in cooler operation and better distortion specs, since each side of the amp would be running at a higher impedance (hence the lower power specs they report even though they are using the higher powered module).

[12bass]

My guess is that the 250ASX2 modules in the Aguilar are run bridged, however, in a mode which is more conservative than competitors' designs. In theory, this should provide more headroom and less distortion at rated output.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by 12bass

My guess is that the 250ASX2 modules in the Aguilar are run bridged, however, in a mode which is more conservative than competitors' designs. In theory, this should provide more headroom and less distortion at rated output.

That was basically my 'parallel' type comment, which actually results in the modules increasing impedance versus halving impedance when combined. I'm sure it is something more complicated than that! However, +1, not sure about headroom, but should result in lower distortion at a given wattage, from my basic understanding of all of this.

Kind of cool that all these guys are using pretty much the same power modules but putting their own tweaks in.

[12bass]

Actually, I meant bridged-mono, not parallel-mono.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by 12bass

Actually, I meant bridged-mono, not parallel-mono.

Bridged mono, if that is the standard bridging, would result in WAY more than 500 watts into 4ohms (that is, I believe what Genz does). Check out the data sheet on the ICE modules on their site.

[Jarrett]

So the elephant in the room is why does Genz Benz call their amp 900 watts and Aguilar using the same components call their amp 500 watts? Which one is right?

[JI99]

So has anyone heard this amp yet (other than trying to at NAMM)? I'd like to know how it compares to the Markbass F1/F500...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jarrett

So the elephant in the room is why does Genz Benz call their amp 900 watts and Aguilar using the same components call their amp 500 watts? Which one is right?

Per the discussion above, depending on how they are bridging, what THD they are reported, etc., they both could be 'right'. I do find the Genz power ratings quite a bit overstated, and they do use some tricks (like bridging that 2 x 250 module to 4ohms) to get there at a cost of higher distortion, etc. I've found most of these micro's to perform quite similarly, whether it be the RH450's 450 watts or the Shuttle 9's 900 watts, at least when running a relatively large single 4ohm cab.

Who knows though! I get how Genz gets their 900 watts from the ICE spec page from the 2 x 250 (i.e., you find a way to safely run that module bridged into 4ohms, and that means each side is running at 2 ohms, and there you go), and I totally see how most of the others get their 450-500 watts from the 2 x 125 bridged into four ohms.

I don't get how Aguilar gets 500 watts out of the ICE 2 x 250 bridged into 4ohms, and again, just guessing about some sort of parallel amp combination versus the more traditional 'bridging'.

Edit: I'm more interested in the topic versus knowing much about it, so really just musing on how all this stuff works. It does seem like Aguilar is actually understating the power, versus the Genz mode of milking every possible drop out of that module with their power management and cooling sort sort of stuff.

[Aguilar/Dave B.]

Originally Posted by KJung

Per the discussion above, depending on how they are bridging, what THD they are reported, etc., they both could be 'right'. I do find the Genz power ratings quite a bit overstated, and they do use some tricks (like bridging that 2 x 250 module to 4ohms) to get there at a cost of higher distortion, etc. I've found most of these micro's to perform quite similarly, whether it be the RH450's 450 watts or the Shuttle 9's 900 watts, at least when running a relatively large single 4ohm cab.

Who knows though! I get how Genz gets their 900 watts from the ICE spec page from the 2 x 250 (i.e., you find a way to safely run that module bridged into 4ohms, and that means each side is running at 2 ohms, and there you go), and I totally see how most of the others get their 450-500 watts from the 2 x 125 bridged into four ohms.

I don't get how Aguilar gets 500 watts out of the ICE 2 x 250 bridged into 4ohms, and again, just guessing about some sort of parallel amp combination versus the more traditional 'bridging'.

Edit: I'm more interested in the topic versus knowing much about it, so really just musing on how all this stuff works. It does seem like Aguilar is actually understating the power, versus the Genz mode of milking every possible drop out of that module with their power management and cooling sort sort of stuff.

Hey Ken,

Actually, we are bridging the output of our amp into four ohms. Thermally, we are managing the module with two fans placed in critical areas. This enables us to run the ice power module at high power levels while avoiding shutdowns. We are not understating the power.

Hope this is informative!

DB

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Aguilar/Dave B.

Hey Ken,

Actually, we are bridging the output of our amp into four ohms. Thermally, we are managing the module with two fans placed in critical areas. This enables us to run the ice power module at high power levels while avoiding shutdowns. We are not understating the power.

Hope this is informative!

DB

Very cool (pardon the pun). It looks like an impressive unit!

And, as always, tell Dave A. that Ken says hey!

[12bass]

Originally Posted by Aguilar/Dave B.

Actually, we are bridging the output of our amp into four ohms. Thermally, we are managing the module with two fans placed in critical areas. This enables us to run the ice power module at high power levels while avoiding shutdowns. We are not understating the power.

Hope this is informative!

DB

The curious thing is that the ICEpower 250ASX2 modules are rated for 500 W into 8 ohms bridged, so one would expect substantially more than that into 4 ohms. That's what leads to the conclusion that Aguilar is being conservative with the Tone Hammer's power rating.

[OldogNewTrick]

I have posted in a number of threads on the output vs. THD of the ICEpower modules.

I assume, without solid evidence, but based on the published data sheets, that the 250asx2 consists of 2 internally bridged 125asx2 modules, which explains the minimum load of 4 ohm per channel and the BTL load of 8 ohms.

Running that module on 4 ohms in BTL mode would translate to 1 ohm loads on each of the 4 individual 125asx2 channels (rated 2 ohm safe).
That will no doubt put an enormeous strain on critical components in the smps.

For Aguilar to manage this is most impressive. How Genz Benz manage to coax 900 W into 4 ohms out of the same module is plain beyond me. Agedhorse replied at the time that he could not answer this in any detail because there are/were patent pending issues of power management involved.


Personally I would have been happier, if not the entire industry would have followed the ICEpower route... I understand it of course as the most convenient solution, with manageable engineering risk.

But for a high power module, I do believe there are much better options now available, Hypex coming very much to mind.
If, for space contraints, you need a unit, like the ICEpower modules, with an integrated smps, Coldamp offer some great options.


Nothing against the TH-500's use of the 250asx2 and I definitely believe its rated power to be credible.


[/rant]

[Jarrett]

Does anyone know what Carvin uses in the BX500? Is that the same module?