All-tube head question.

REDLAWMAN · #1 12-10-2011, 10:39 AM

I had the pleasure of playing through an Ampeg Heritage SVT-CL for a while.

Apart from giving me enduring tinnitus when played only at room-practising level, developing a problem with the tubes and weighing more than my girlfriend, the sound it produced (through my sealed NV412) was simply astonishing.

The only way I can describe it is 'musical'. The notes were sharp, vibrant, crystal-clear, 'bell-like' and harmonious: in a nutshell, it sounded simply beautiful and MUSICAL.

By musical, I mean it sounded gorgeous to my ear at relatively low volumes: each of the notes had an inherent musical quality which my ears registered as 'gorgeous'.

No matter what, neither my Littlemark (with or without a Sansamp BDD) nor a Streamliner 900 can produce notes which sound anything close to those from the all-valve head: as nice as both of those amps are, the notes are simply in an entirely different league in terms of 'musical beauty' to my ear. Although difficult to put into words, they sound- by comparison- dull, lifeless, one-dimensional and artificial.

My question here is four-fold really:-

Is what I'm describing the inherent difference between all-valve heads and SS/Hybrid amps?

Why did the Ampeg sound so 'musical'?

Do all all-tube heads (eg. the Hiwatts) sound so musical?

Is it possible to get this 'musicality' from a SS/Hybrid head?

Thanks everyone.

anonymous02282011 · #2 12-10-2011, 10:43 AM

sounds like you've got the bug.

i play an old SVT, so i know what you're talkin about.

Not all tube heads sound like an SVT. I've owned a bunch.

It probably is possible to get the sound from a SS/hybrid amp, but I don't really have much experience with those.

Careful with the volume! Tinnitus bad.

eyeballkid · #3 12-10-2011, 10:54 AM

in hopes of not getting flamed...
while not all tube amps have that gorgeous musical quality, they are more likely to have it than a S.S head. It is what TubeHeads love!

I have a fender 300 pro and the Sunn 1200s (fender bassman 1200 is the same amp).. the 300 is the tube version of the 1200 and while it is the same tone, the 300 just has that lil extra musicality to it like the SVT that is just amazingly cool.

my old V4B had it, my Traynor.. not as much.

is it POSSIBLE to get from a SS/hybrid?... yeah, to some degree, but not in its totality if ya ask me. My sunn gets close.. but that extra inch is where the love is. My Ashdown has it to some degree, but by comparison ALOT of SS heads just get 'almost'.

as for why.. do a search and youll find technical descriptions and arguments galore, but basically it comes down to 3rd order harmonic distortion, and natural tube compression to my limited understanding. but I believe its the ashes off the pyres of bass gods past that have been sprinkled into my Winged Cs.

3k Mylz · #4 12-10-2011, 11:15 AM

Great post! This is a very long running (and expensive) debate...

Here's my take, being accustomed to all 3 worlds... I run an SVT CL, a Mesa M6 and A Hughes & Kettner Baseforce. They are Tube, Hybrid and SS respectively.

While all 3 have basically the same input, eq and sculpting controls, I would say that the "character" of the tube is the most flexible. the solid state is great for recording, as it gives a very clean even voice. Kind of reliable, but nothing awesome.

The CL and hybrid have more of a distinct voice. Wich is better or more musical is subjective, but for me I like the classic musical feel of the CL, but the M6 brings out the creativeness in me. I think that's what you have found in the SVT.

I would say that today's high end Hybrids come very close to offering the same type of feel, but ultimately the holy grail is in the eye of the beholder.

Mojo-Man · #5 12-10-2011, 11:19 AM

Nothing sounds as good as an all tube head.
That in mind, try a Genz Benz Streamliner.
It may not be tube, but it's close, and sounds wonderful.

eyeballkid · #6 12-10-2011, 11:23 AM

actually in the OP he was complaining about the Streamliner paling by comparison.

3K... Well said.

coreyfyfe · #7 12-10-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo-Man

Nothing sounds as good as an all tube head.
That in mind, try a Genz Benz Streamliner.
It may not be tube, but it's close, and sounds wonderful.

You mean like the streamliner 900 he mentions in the OP as not sounding as good?

Sounds to me you've found what you like. It can be hard to put into words, especially to describe over the internet, but a more "musical" sounds is a good way to put it. I've found that different tube amps have a differing degree of this "musicality" of which you speak, so if the weight and volume of the SVT is too much, I'd suggest going out and trying a few lower volume heads. A lot of vintage tube amps in the 50-100 watt range are available for decent prices, and might be worth checking out.

edbass · #8 12-10-2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDLAWMAN

The only way I can describe it is 'musical'. The notes were sharp, vibrant, crystal-clear, 'bell-like' and harmonious: in a nutshell, it sounded simply beautiful and MUSICAL.

I think you have succinctly described the somewhat nebulous concept of why some players still maintain the passion to go through the logistic hassles of gigging big tube rigs in this day and age of SMPS and class D transistor amps.

Some hear it and some don't, and out of the “hear it” group some like it and some don’t. Regardless, the phenomenon you describe is probably the key factor in the many tube vs. SS “debacle threads” here on TB.

I wonder how long before this thread ends up in a dogfight?

JGR · #9 12-10-2011, 11:38 AM

FWIW, I've owned a pair of CLs and the VR, as well as a pair of DB728s.

I think you can get a lot closer with some other amps. I find the Markbass stuff to be anemic in the power department, and the STL to be too scooped in the mids.

Try a Sansamp RPM with a good poweramp, or perhaps the new Tech 21 1969. I'm also quite pleased with the DB680 and my own pre running with SS power.

eyeballkid · #10 12-10-2011, 11:50 AM

yeah.. but the DB680 and yours is cheating.. those are tube saturated pre's. ALOT of hybrids stick ONE 12AX7 in there and call it a tube preamp. Big difference as you know. Both yours and the 680 get much more of that musicality of a tube power section by having so much glass in there.

**jmattbassplaya** · #11 12-10-2011, 11:55 AM

Curious. I find my Markbass LMIII to sound A LOT like my SVT-CL. The notes coming out of the MB don't have nearly the same amount of heft as the SVT, but it definitely is tubish in tone.

Mastermold · #12 12-10-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Curious. I find my Markbass LMIII to sound A LOT like my SVT-CL. The notes coming out of the MB don't have nearly the same amount of heft as the SVT, but it definitely is tubish in tone.

The MB heads are great--my LMII gets a lot of use. But my SVT-CL is still my personal #1.

JGR · #13 12-10-2011, 01:38 PM

Another one I really like is the regular Fusion 550, QC/ reliability and motorized knobs aside.

REDLAWMAN · #14 12-10-2011, 02:34 PM

CoreFyFe (and everyone else)- I let the SVT go because in addition to the problem tube/s from new on my particular one, it really was- as all you guys will know- complete overkill for practising at home, even at low volume!

Are there any all-tube heads out there then that aren't designed for stadiums that will give me this 'musicality' again, without blowing my knackers off and adding to this tinnitus? I addressed CoreFyFe specifically because you alluded to this in your post.

Maybe it was the'Winged-C's in the Heritage, but I've got to say that my Littlemark and the SVT were absolutely noting alike on any level, even with a SansampBDD in front of it.

anonymous02282011 · #15 12-10-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDLAWMAN

Are there any all-tube heads out there then that aren't designed for stadiums that will give me this 'musicality' again, without blowing my knackers off and adding to this tinnitus? I addressed CoreFyFe specifically because you alluded to this in your post.

get an old V4B, from the 70s. those things are NOT SVTs but they are killer.

96tbird · #16 12-10-2011, 04:19 PM

+1, on the V4-b, but if you do, stock up 2 or 3 6k11 tubes. They're obsolete. I can give you the name of a tube guy that will sell direct from his stock at around 15 bucks a piece, nos, tested. He even took the time to select his best for me. Currently on eBay they sell for 60 bucks!

Warning: a V4-b is nearly as heavy as an SVT!

Spectrum · #17 12-10-2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDLAWMAN

Are there any all-tube heads out there then that aren't designed for stadiums that will give me this 'musicality' again, without blowing my knackers off and adding to this tinnitus?

Can't you use a guitar head for home practice with tuby sound? There was a thread around here not long ago about using low-wattage guitar heads and bass cabs.

96tbird · #18 12-10-2011, 04:35 PM

Sure you can, some may break up sooner than desired though.

anonymous02282011 · #19 12-10-2011, 04:39 PM

i had good luck with a Guild Thunderbass. fairly light weight and about 60 watts, kind of a scooped sound. Even did some gigs with it.

I much prefer the V4B

The Fender bassmans are nice practice amps that can be giggable

REDLAWMAN · #20 12-10-2011, 04:43 PM

While we're on the wattage issue, why is there such a huge discrepancy in volume between an all-tube head and a SS one quoted as having the same (or higher) wattage output?