"all tube preamp" - misleading advertising?

RCCollins · #1 01-16-2011, 05:31 PM

I just saw an online ad (never mind where) for thr GK MB Fusion 500 touting its "all tube pre amp"

Now, I think it's already misleading and inaccurate when people call a hybrid head with a tube pre a "tube amp" - but this is just ridiculous, isn't it? It's as if they sat down and discussed ways to mislead consumers who have an incomplete understanding of what makes a tube amp.

Of course I realize some preamps use both solid state and tube for their various functions - but that isn't what they're talking about, is it? Even if it IS, I think the ad is misleading

Is it just me?

anubis16 · #2 01-16-2011, 05:48 PM

I don't think this is misleading. "all tube pre amp" specifies that they're talking about the pre amp, not the power amp.

I suppose calling it an all tube preamp could misdirect some people into thinking it's an all tube amp, but still, that's a bit of a stretch.

randmcnally · #3 01-16-2011, 05:50 PM

I don't think it's misleading, mainly because there are a bunch of heads that have a tube thrown into one of the gain stages for the purpose of giving an tube-driven sound, as opposed to an actual tube pre.

RCCollins · #4 01-16-2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anubis16

I don't think this is misleading. "all tube pre amp" specifies that they're talking about the pre amp, not the power amp.

I suppose calling it an all tube preamp could misdirect some people into thinking it's an all tube amp, but still, that's a bit of a stretch.

I don't think it's a stretch at all! In fact, I think it makes it more evident that they are trying to be sneaky. I'm not even sure that the preamp in the Fusion 500 really is completely free of SS elements (someone please illuminate me on that)

BuffaloBob4343 · #5 01-16-2011, 05:57 PM

Until recently, virtually every "tube" preamp in a hybrid amp has been a single tube in one of several gain stages.

Recently, a few new hybrid amps have been introduced that in fact are "all tube" preamps because every gain stage now has a tube.

This may be misleading to one who doesn't understand how amps work, but this certainly is not intended to mislead the ignorant. It is meant to accurately describe and attract buyers who are knowledgeable.

**Chef** · #6 01-16-2011, 06:00 PM

The mb-fusion has three tubes in the preamp.
The manual, available on line, explains very well what they do.

In the case of this amp, it doesn't seem misleading, to me.

BuffaloBob4343 · #7 01-16-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCollins

I don't think it's a stretch at all! In fact, I think it makes it more evident that they are trying to be sneaky. I'm not even sure that the preamp in the Fusion 500 really is completely free of SS elements (someone please illuminate me on that)

I guess you could actually do your own research on that, but Genz Benz has just introduced their new Streamliner micro amp and it is an all tube (three) pre-amp.

anubis16 · #8 01-16-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCollins

I don't think it's a stretch at all! In fact, I think it makes it more evident that they are trying to be sneaky. I'm not even sure that the preamp in the Fusion 500 really is completely free of SS elements (someone please illuminate me on that)

"Solid state components" usually refers to transistors, and there's a good chance transistors might be present in the pre amp. However, this is really not something to be concerned about. Solid state components won't suck away any tone coloration from the tubes. Also, the Fusion 500 uses tubes to create most, if not all gain in the preamp section. Furthermore, there are some solid state components, like MOSFET transistors, that react very similarly to tubes (more so when they are saturated).

Hybrid amps often sound different than all tube amps, but they usually also sound different from all solid state amps. Since they never marketed it as sounding like an all tube amp, I don't think this is being "sneaky." Hybrid amps have been around long enough for people to not expect them to sound like all tube amps.

mdogs · #9 01-16-2011, 06:07 PM

This is extremely targeted marketing and the people they are targeting had better know the difference between "all tube amp" and "all tube pre-amp." Conspiracy theories...

**Chef** · #10 01-16-2011, 06:12 PM

Just for some perspective:
The mighty and renowned Aguilar DB680 all tube preamp had plenty of solid state bits in there, as well as 5 (IIRC) tubes.

As far as I know, there are no "all tube" anythings that don't.

RCCollins · #11 01-16-2011, 06:19 PM

there's obviously SS components in there; I imagine that "all-tube" refers to the gain stages - and that's cool. One could nitpick and insist on tube phase inversion, rectifier etc - and it would be my tendency to nitpick!

I'm not trying to start a conspiracy theory here - and I get the argument that this is targeted marketing. There's no snake oil or anything. But it IS prone to being misinterpeted IMO

projectMalamute · #12 01-16-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef

As far as I know, there are no "all tube" anythings that don't.

All of the following have no transistors in them at all:

Ampeg V4
Ampeg SVT
Ampeg B15
Sunn 200S
Sunn 2000S
Traynor YBA-1
Traynor YBA-1A
Traynor YBA-3
Hiwatt DR103
Hiwatt DR203
Hiwatt DR405
Marshall Major
Marshall Super Bass

I could keep going for a while...

**Chef** · #13 01-16-2011, 06:23 PM

OK, I read the manual at one point, and I'll probably get this wrong, so, go read the manual if you like...but...

Each 12ax7 has two sides, actually allowing it to have two functions.
I may have this wrong, but, I think the three tubes control:
input gain A and B
treble and mi mid
low mid and bass
this gives you tube driven gain staging and tube driven gain

again, i may have this wrong, it's been a while since i read the manual, but, you get the idea here.

**Chef** · #14 01-16-2011, 06:25 PM

Really? No where?
Not in the tube heaters, anywhere?
No capacitors? Nothing but tubes and transformers in there?

Well, look at me, I'm learning...every amp I've ever opened up had something, somewhere.
I've not been inside any of those, or, lots of other things either.
I'm not, nor have I ever been a repair tech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

All of the following have no transistors in them at all:

Ampeg V4
Ampeg SVT
Ampeg B15
Sunn 200S
Sunn 2000S
Traynor YBA-1
Traynor YBA-1A
Traynor YBA-3
Hiwatt DR103
Hiwatt DR203
Hiwatt DR405
Marshall Major
Marshall Super Bass

I could keep going for a while...

Jim C · #15 01-16-2011, 06:26 PM

RC,
To put it into perspective, I usually agree with you buddy, but not on this one.
Solid state preamp is an industry recognized term; I believe they are using it correctly and accurately with no malice or false advertising directed at the consumer. Very consistent with their peers as well; IMO.

JimmyM · #16 01-16-2011, 06:26 PM

i do think it's lame that some call a ss amp with a tube preamp a tube amp and not a hybrid, but as long as it's not a show tube, i don't think it's so bad to call it a tube preamp.

**nostatic** · #17 01-16-2011, 06:39 PM

I've never seen anyone call a hybrid a "tube amp." Well, except for confused people on TB

There certainly is a gradation of design from an all tube point-to-point handwired amp to a full silicon modeling job. In between you go from all tube gain stages in the preamp (Streamliner and presumably MB Fusion), to a single tube in some of the gain stages to a single or mini tube to "flavor" the stage. From a marketing perspective, if it glows, they'll tout the "tube."

RCCollins · #18 01-16-2011, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i do think it's lame that some call a ss amp with a tube preamp a tube amp and not a hybrid, but as long as it's not a show tube, i don't think it's so bad to call it a tube preamp.

it's a tube preamp for sure, no question. what raised my eyebrow was the term "all tube" with regards to the preamp. I get that it has all-tube gain stages - but that isn't the only possible meaning of "all tube preamp". I haven't seen the term used before, not even by GK.

Advertising tech specs is tricky, because the copy has to be short, tight and catchy, but at the same time, it has to be as precise as possible. So while it may be going too far on my part to suggest that the ad is intentionally misleading, I do think that (given the consumer's typical lack of familiarity with tube amps) it misses the mark somehow.

Mr. Foxen · #19 01-16-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef

Really? No where?
Not in the tube heaters, anywhere?
No capacitors? Nothing but tubes and transformers in there?

Well, look at me, I'm learning...every amp I've ever opened up had something, somewhere.
I've not been inside any of those, or, lots of other things either.
I'm not, nor have I ever been a repair tech.

Capacitors and transistors are different things, it was clear that transistors were specified in the bit you quoted. You don't get tube amps without capacitors. The thing you are supposed to nit-pick is the rectification, and for bass purposes, solid state rectification is far superior to any valve rectification you can carry.

anubis16 · #20 01-16-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef

Really? No where?
Not in the tube heaters, anywhere?
No capacitors? Nothing but tubes and transformers in there?

Well, look at me, I'm learning...every amp I've ever opened up had something, somewhere.
I've not been inside any of those, or, lots of other things either.
I'm not, nor have I ever been a repair tech.

I guarantee every amp has capacitors and resistors- you couldn't make a tube amp without these components. Solid state refers only to transistors.