Which amp/cab(s) for outside Gig without PA support

[relsner]

So I have a gig coming up in two weeks and was hoping to get some input as to which amp/cab combo to take. The amps and cabs sound great in their own right but I have mostly played outside with PA support, particularly subs. I assume taking two different cabs would yield the most volume and output but I have never done this before. Typically I take the Aquilars for the small clubs I normally play. I know there is some concern about mismatched cabs but this is what I have. I am mostly concerned about having enough umph to stay in the mix, although drums will not be miked either.

Gig Specs:

Outside gig, no PA support on country club patio
200 guests expected.
Band consists or 2 guitars, drums, keys, bass, two female singers, 1 male singer,there is PA for vocals
Music is classic rock, think Petty, Stones, Doobies, CCR, etc.

Equipment choices:

Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0
GK 800 RB

Avatar 410 (8ohm 400 watt)
Aquilar DS112 (I have two of these 8ohm each)
1x15 (Eminence Kappa Pro 15A (8ohm 500watt)
2x10 (Eminence Legend BP102 (8ohm 400watt)


Any opinions greatly appreciated.

[madbassplaya]

I would probably go with the two Agg 112's for the cabs.

[Eric Moesle]

Outdoor gigs are hard to cover without PA, unless you have LOTS of speakers.

If it were me, I'd bring it all. Better too much than too little. I run all the cabs, and if I could'nt swing the impedance with just the one head, I'd go line out of one of the heads into the other and use them both to power all the cabs.

I typically use two 1x12's WITH PA support, and for outdoor gigs WITH PA support I still double my speakers.

[Rafael]

My rule of thumb is if the drums aren't running through the PA then I only need a little bit more than at band practice. If your rig works with the drummer at practice, you should be OK....the only reason I say "a little bit more" is that outside you don't have the room to back up your rig. You're may run into coverage problems for the band so if I were you I'd place two cabs, one on each side of the rear of the stage so both sides of the band can hear you.

[will33]

Don't spread cabs out across the stage, they'll cancel each other in the lows and they audience won't hear any bass. Face your 410 at the middle of the audience, put one of your other cabs on top facing sideways across the band for them to hear, bring your most powerful amp and turn it up. You'll sound thinner than usual, deal with it. Can boost bass a little but too much eats up power and has no definition, boost lowmids to thicken up the sound. Just trust that it sounds better out front all blended together than it does where you're standing. If the band can hear you good enough without a cab facing sideways, face the stack forward pointed at the center lf the audience.

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by Rafael

My rule of thumb is if the drums aren't running through the PA then I only need a little bit more than at band practice. If your rig works with the drummer at practice, you should be OK....the only reason I say "a little bit more" is that outside you don't have the room to back up your rig. You're may run into coverage problems for the band so if I were you I'd place two cabs, one on each side of the rear of the stage so both sides of the band can hear you.

There's good and bad advice here, IMHO.

Good advice: If the drums won't be mic'ed, you only need whatever it takes to play at that volume. A patio at a country club with 200 guests is NOT the same as playing a festival on a stage in an open field with thousands of attendees.

Bad advice: Putting one cab on each side of the stage...don't do it. Bass is very sensitive to phase cancellation. The farther apart the cabs, the worse the cancellation.

You are not going to get good low thump outdoors without high-power subwoofers, so just concentrate on getting the low mids you need to be heard. The overall volume of the band should be dictated by the un-mic'ed drums. If this rule is not observed, all the guests will hear is lead guitar and vocals or, worst case, just the lead guitar.

[will33]

+1 on matching levels with the drums. Any more than that and it throws the mix off. A little quieter good mix sounds better than a little louder not so good one.

[countrybass007]

I'd take all my gear with an A/B box to run your bass through both rigs. I use multiple rigs for outdoor gigs, and the advice to keep the speakers in a group is a good one.

[stingraysvt]

Less is more... take the 2 112's and the GK

I wish I still had my old GK

the second choice would be the GK 800

w/ 210 running off 100 watt side and the 115 off the 300 watt side and crossover the lows all to the 15 and use the 210 for low mids-Highs

Either one of those rigs will romp

[stingraysvt]

I used 1 410 all the time for crowds up to 200 people w/ speakers on a stick rig.

I ran the bass and guitar into 2 open channels on the head and panned them to the opposite side of the stage (if I was on stage right, I'd pan to the opposite side of the pa about 60-70%) for coverage/balance, more for presence than sheer volume. I also put the kick in to get the attack.

Got compliments all night how well we were mixed/sounded for such a small pa rig

[pasta4lnch]

the 2 aggies or the 410 should do just fine w/ the GK. I've done a bunch of outdoor PA-less shows w/ a 212 and a LMII and didnt even need to crank it . . .

[Rafael]

Originally Posted by scottbass

There's good and bad advice here, IMHO.


Bad advice: Putting one cab on each side of the stage...don't do it. Bass is very sensitive to phase cancellation. The farther apart the cabs, the worse the cancellation.

At first this seemed to make sense, but the more I think about it the more I scratch my head. First, when I set up outdoors I'm cognizant of the snare being heard 'round the stage, so everyone in the band has that to work with, but often whoever is playing on the opposite side of the stage needs to hear me as well, so I think of the split cab arrangement as much of a monitor situation as anything else given the lack of reinforcement.

Secondly though to the issue of phase cancellation itself: If that were such an issue we'd never have PA stacks on both sides of the stage...?...what is the difference between me playing my amp through two cabs and two PA stacks? Isn't that pretty much the same thing?

Moving a couple of inches left or right eliminates the effect, and could even show some reinforcement....phasing creates more of a comb filter effect doesn't it?

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by Eric Moesle

Outdoor gigs are hard to cover without PA, unless you have LOTS of speakers.

If it were me, I'd bring it all. Better too much than too little. I run all the cabs, and if I could'nt swing the impedance with just the one head, I'd go line out of one of the heads into the other and use them both to power all the cabs.

I typically use two 1x12's WITH PA support, and for outdoor gigs WITH PA support I still double my speakers.

This.

[BogeyBass]

The GK with the 4x10 should be fine.

If your looking for everyone to hear you on stage its better to go with a higher vertical stack.

Doesnt make sense i know but it just works that way.

So if your really worried about it run the other 2x10 on top of the 4x10 to get a higher stack. which will also drag a little more juice from the head since you will be at 4ohms with 2 cabs.

*edit* you can touch a 9volt battery to a cable just plugged into your cab, make a note which direction the speakers goes, forward / backward does not matter. Then do the same with the other cab to see if the cabinets are in phase. Both speakers should move in the same directions if they are in phase. Mismatched speakers can still cause a little funky action, but its atleast not as bad as having 2 cabinets completly out of phase.

[nicoli]

Originally Posted by Rafael

Secondly though to the issue of phase cancellation itself: If that were such an issue we'd never have PA stacks on both sides of the stage...?...what is the difference between me playing my amp through two cabs and two PA stacks? Isn't that pretty much the same thing?

Moving a couple of inches left or right eliminates the effect, and could even show some reinforcement....phasing creates more of a comb filter effect doesn't it?

In a perfect world, your PA mains will have mids and highs on both sides of the stage in those vertical stacks, but your subs will be centred in a group below, typically under the stage. You're going to get comb filtering in just about any acoustic space regardless of number of sound sources due to reflections, that's different than straight up phase cancellation from two different sound sources, although the result could be similar in practice.

For an outdoor show, I'd bring big firepower. Probably the 4x10 and the 2x10, or the 4x10 and 1x15 if you can run it with a crossover. It'll be really tough getting the kick drum heard too without PA support.

[MyMusic]

Why not try to rent an 810 or another 8 ohm 410?

[s_mcsleazy]

loud ones?

[Vintage Guy]

I have always used a 8x10 cabinet outside with at least a 600 watt head. Never had a problem being heard over my guitarist's Marshall stack.

[scottbass]

I think some of you might not have read OP's post. The upcoming gig is on a country club patio for 200 people. I'm familiar with these types of gig. This is not a rock concert. The audience probably wants to be able to carry on close-range conversations while the band is playing.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by scottbass

I think some of you might not have read OP's post. The upcoming gig is on a country club patio for 200 people. I'm familiar with these types of gig. This is not a rock concert. The audience probably wants to be able to carry on close-range conversations while the band is playing.

+1

Without any PA support, he should need no more than what is used at a rehearsal room (enough to be heard over unamplified drums).