AMP SHOOTOUT: Mesa Walkabout VS. Aguilar TH500 VS. Orange TB500

[speyer]

Originally Posted by KJung

Finally, the clip light is a 'total preamp' clip signal, including the master volume. Strange design, and I still don't know quite what it means. Technically, it means that the signal hitting the power amp is clipped due to something It is not a 'first gain stage' clip indicator, nor is it a power amp indicator. Aguilar pretty much says 'ignore it', and it does not in any way indicate something wrong. I've only had it come on once, and that was on the loudest gig I did all year

Ah, that makes sense! The clip light was all lit up when I was testing both the TH and Terror at MAX master vol. I was a bit confused because the gain was only at 9:00... Looks like I did the right thing! I just ignored it, because it sounded fantastic.

[speyer]

Originally Posted by astack

So, 2 WA's have more power than either the TH or TB, so doesn't the second solve your problem?

Cool review, glad to see the Orange head is still popular. It's a slamming little head, that I felt had it bit more heft than the Aggie (maybe only slightly) and has a lot going for it. It's funny, I would describe the two almost exactly opposite of you in many ways. At the end of the day, there's a lot of tonal overlap. The TH has a much higher learning curve, though, as you're finding out.

The Orange EQ is a Fender stack, with fully ccw-cw-ccw (0-10-0) H-M-B being flat. So noon is scooped. (Not that there's anything wrong with that! It does sounds GREAT.)


As for the ohm switch, I think it's a cool little feature. It adjusts the limiter on the power amp to put out essentially double power, so like a tube head you can get full power independent of whether your cabs are 4 or 8 ohms. You can think of it as an instant TB1000 switch

So, when are the TH headcases coming out

HAHA! thanks.. I really like both heads, but I do feel they are quite different tonally. And yes, I am certainly in the curve with both at the moment!

I'll be working on some clips over the weekend... hopefully I can hash out a few comparisons

[Daniel Piper]

Speyer - Dude, awesome shootout. How do you feel your rs210s are handling the bloomy low end of the TB500 and TH500?

[speyer]

I get into some weird situations outdoors sometimes with these cabs, but I don't play outdoors enough to worry about it... They handle bloomy lows just fine on the gig, and it really comes down to the room IMO. And IME, that goes for just about any cab.

I have had my fare share of cabs over the years, mostly Bergantino's and I can say... these RS210's are my current favorite for 3 reasons:

1. I LOVE the coaxial tweeter design which also happens to result in the great form factor of the cab.

2. These cabs sound much like classic "bass cabs" to me and aren't too 'hi-fi' or too 'wide' in response. They have a nice organic paper cone sound that breaks up nicely when pushed hard. In a loud mix.. they kinda remind me of and feel like an ampeg 810 being cranked.

3. I'm cheap.. and so are they! Can be had for about $350 each used/mint which is incredible value IMO!

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by speyer

+1 Roger, well aware of that... did I suggest otherwise somewhere in my review? I'm just not sure if you are pointing that out to me or simply stating a fact? However, I was unaware that class 'D' is not really 'digital'... I should do some homework! I understand the rating has to do with the high switching power supply, no?

Also, Ken's is right.. I need to buy a pair of your cabs!

I think what Roger was referring to was your setting the knobs on all three amps at the same numbers (12:00 I think is what you said) for a "fair comparison". But what he was saying is that 12:00 on one amp is different from 12:00 on another due to the pots, all other components being equal.

Great reviews by the way! Thanks!

[rodl2005]

I just tried a JJ12AU7 in the V1 pos of the Orange TB500 & Jim, I think this'd be the trick for you.
Still goes VERY loud & gives a lot more room on the GAIN control prior to overdrive. Sure the volume is a little less overall, but this is a very loud amp.
I tried what few other 12AX7's I had too- I only had 2 MESA branded Russian 12AX7's & 2 OLD Philips ones.
Neither of these made much difference- a slightly smoother OD with the Philips ones.
Tried to get both LOUD & CLEAN with all different tubes & it'll do it fine with all, just, obviously, more room on the GAIN control with the AU7 in there & still goes VERY loud.
Decided to leave the PHILLIPS 12AX7's in there for now

[speyer]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I think what Roger was referring to was your setting the knobs on all three amps at the same numbers (12:00 I think is what you said) for a "fair comparison". But what he was saying is that 12:00 on one amp is different from 12:00 on another due to the pots, all other components being equal.

Great reviews by the way! Thanks!

Thank you, I really enjoyed doing this. But really, I get what you and Roger are saying.. I just don't know where you got that from my review. It just never happened at any point?! I suppose all the knob references could be a bit confusing. Also, I'm not a very strong writer, so maybe I'm missing my own confusion there? it's all good either way!

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by speyer

+1 Roger, well aware of that... did I suggest otherwise somewhere in my review? I'm just not sure if you are pointing that out to me or simply stating a fact? However, I was unaware that class 'D' is not really 'digital'... I should do some homework! I understand the rating has to do with the high switching power supply, no?

Also, Ken's is right.. I need to buy a pair of your cabs!

You had mentioned the fact that the Walkabout's volume maxes out with the volume up around 1:00 or 2:00, so I was really just pointing out to someone who might take this as there being a problem with the amp, that knob position has little to do with the output of the amp. Depending on the taper of the pot, an amp can max out at 1:00, or 5:00.

Don't feel bad about not really understanding the class D and digital relationship. It is actually quite complicated and I've heard guys like Agedhorse explain it to the point my head was spinning. And from what I understand, there are actually some elements of digital happening somewhere in the circuitry, so that complicates matters even further. It's very common for people to refer to class D as digital, even though it isn't truly so.

[vin*tone]

So the Orange can do clean? Every demo I've heard of it has some real middy drive to it. Haven't bothered checking it out myself because that doesn't interest me at all.

I loved my W.A too but like a lot of folks, found it not loud enough. If the Orange or TH500 can get that vibe it will put both on my radar.

Originally Posted by rodl2005

I just tried a JJ12AU7 in the V1 pos of the Orange TB500 & Jim, I think this'd be the trick for you.
Still goes VERY loud & gives a lot more room on the GAIN control prior to overdrive. Sure the volume is a little less overall, but this is a very loud amp.
I tried what few other 12AX7's I had too- I only had 2 MESA branded Russian 12AX7's & 2 OLD Philips ones.
Neither of these made much difference- a slightly smoother OD with the Philips ones.
Tried to get both LOUD & CLEAN with all different tubes & it'll do it fine with all, just, obviously, more room on the GAIN control with the AU7 in there & still goes VERY loud.
Decided to leave the PHILLIPS 12AX7's in there for now

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

So the Orange can do clean? Every demo I've heard of it has some real middy drive to it. Haven't bothered checking it out myself because that doesn't interest me at all.

I loved my W.A too but like a lot of folks, found it not loud enough. If the Orange or TH500 can get that vibe it will put both on my radar.

I woud say yes, you can get clean from Orange. Yet I would call it Clean with some old school warmth. Hard to describe. There is a richness that is full. The amp is very touch sensitive to right hand dynamics. I think that may be what impressed me, but I could never put my finger on why. That's it. TOUCH sensitivity. Play lighter, get clean, dig in a bit get a bit of growl, dig in hard and it grinds but very musically and with harmonic complexity and growl that I love! I you are looking for uber clean, you may want to look elsewhere. There are amps that sparkle a bit more up high.

The Orange has midrange Complexity, but I found it less Mid Forward than the Aguilar TH500.

[rodl2005]

+1 it'll sure go loud & clean. Clean enough for my tastes anyway.
Switching between the TH500 & the BT500 I found the Aggy can do it too, probly not quite as loud, but its eq is far more adjustable.
Crank the treble on the TH500 & it sure gets bright too. I don't think I'd ever really pushed the treble on it & heard that side. Very cool amp.
Both are.
I'm wondering how long I can keep the Orange before its owner gets sick of his replacement/loner

[AMp'D.2play]

Very nice review! I looked at both the TB500, and to a lesser extent the WA back in December, but in the end chose a TH500 and I haven't looked back!

Originally Posted by speyer

Then there was the Walkabout:

... it's just to bad the Master vol dies at 1:00-2:00

I know Roger touched on it, as has Kjung in prior threads, but from what I've read, this is not an isolated case with the Mesa. There are a lot (many/most?) of heads where the volume taper reacts like this. IIRC, one of the few heads where is didn't was my Tecamp Puma 500. That thing cranked out more volume almost throughout its entire range.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by AMp'D.2play

I know Roger touched on it, as has Kjung in prior threads, but from what I've read, this is not an isolated case with the Mesa. There are a lot (many/most?) of heads where the volume taper reacts like this. IIRC, one of the few heads where is didn't was my Tecamp Puma 500. That thing cranked out more volume almost throughout its entire range.

+1 Actually most amps are like the Walkabout (linear master volume taper).

This is all due to the nature of how we hear loudness. The increase in perceived loudness (db's) is non-linear, so that going from soft to moderate takes much less energy than going from loud to super loud (that is why the difference between a whisper and regular speaking is 30db, and the difference between a subway train and a jet is a few db). So, the decibel scale is non-linear, kind of like the Richter scale for earthquakes, where a 7.2 versu 8.2 difference is MUCH larger than a 3.2 to 4.2 difference in earthquake intensity (if my brain is working correctly this morning).

So, kind of counterintuitively, if an amp manufacturer uses a LINEAR volume pot, it behaves totally non-linearly, since the impact of turning the amp up linearly does not take into account that perceived volume is non-linear. Hence, once you get to 10 o'clock or noon (depending on the level of your pre gain signal), the amp is putting out pretty much all it can.

Mixing boards and some higher end amps (Glockenklang, the TecAmp heads (at least the original versions) and a few others actually use non-linear audio-taper pots, which again, adjust for that non-linear 'jump' in volume a human hears as things get louder. In other words, it has kind of an opposite non-linear effect that results in the volume to, you guessed it, increase linearly (i.e., gradually and evenly) with the increase in the knob.

The advantage of this is that you get a much more controlled way to increase and decrease volume, since the perceived volume of the amp won't 'jump' at low levels of the knob (like, for example, some of the GK heads and the Mesa M6/M9, which seem to go from 'off to screaming' at 9 o'clock on the master). My Glock, for example, doesn't even start to get significantly loud until after the noon setting, and has useful volume gains all the way through 3 or 4 o'clock. This is the way most mixing consoles work.

The disadvantage(for the manufacturer) of using this type of master is that you won't have players trying the heads out and saying... 'this amp is really powerful, it gets screaming loud at 9 o'clock'.

This is another of my longwinded posts that could simply be stated (as Roger did) that the volume achieved at a given position of the master volume knob across different amp models gives the buyer NO meaningful information on the maximum output of the amp.

[dukeorock]

A lot of things said here mirror my limited testing of these amps. The WA is much loved, but for me there just isn't enough gas in the tank. The Orange does clean quite well, contrary to what I would've thought. Several reliability reports made me a little nervous about looking into the TB line of Orange amps, though.

I'd heard quite a few players running full Aggie rigs, and I'd got it in my head that they were preferred by folks who like a 90's, mid forward sound, and therefore weren't gonna be for me. Tried several Aggie cabs and never liked any of them, so I scratched that off the list! Later, a few people I trust started praising the Tone Hammer line, so I grabbed the TH pre/DI to use for my poweramp setup...gotta say, I really like the Tone Hammer pre a whole lot The bonus is, assuming you have a nice power amp, it's a lot cheaper to try different pre's out...I think I paid just over $200 for my Aggie

[Jim C]

Rod and others: sounds like the Orange Terror 500 can do clean but just realized they make a 1,000 watt head. I've got to think that 1 kW could equal very clean with plenty of headroom but may loose some of the touch sensitivity and tonal characteristics at sane volumes.

Overall, I'm glad the WA went to a user that doesn't need as much power and I'm very happy with the TH. I can definitely see selling some gear to have the Orange around too.

I couldn't bring myself to buy any used micro other than Mark bass and Aguilar due to reliability issues. Is the Orange a bad idea on the used market? There are B model (open box / returned) amps on eBay at good pricing.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Rod and others: sounds like the Orange Terror 500 can do clean but just realized they make a 1,000 watt head. I've got to think that 1 kW could equal very clean with plenty of headroom but may loose some of the touch sensitivity and tonal characteristics at sane volumes.

Overall, I'm glad the WA went to a user that doesn't need as much power and I'm very happy with the TH. I can definitely see selling some gear to have the Orange around too.

I couldn't bring myself to buy any used micro other than Mark bass and Aguilar due to reliability issues. Is the Orange a bad idea on the used market? There are B model (open box / returned) amps on eBay at good pricing.

I have heard the Orange TB 1000...seriously good sounding amplifier to me Between my Genz amps and my Aggie pre/poweramp setup, I'm feeling pretty covered...no real amp GAS...for now

[mpdd]

intriguing, someday maybe a terror bass 250, or a walkabout 600, it's hard for me to gauge volumes right now, because in all of the bands i'm playing with the guitarists are using modeling amp combos

[astack]

For such a simple head, there's so much confusion around the Terror Bass -- or is it Bass Terror (I seem to remember the box said one thing, but the amp said it the other way )

Originally Posted by rodl2005

+1 it'll sure go loud & clean. Clean enough for my tastes anyway.
Switching between the TH500 & the BT500 I found the Aggy can do it too, probly not quite as loud, but its eq is far more adjustable.
Crank the treble on the TH500 & it sure gets bright too. I don't think I'd ever really pushed the treble on it & heard that side.

+1 Sounds closer to my experience with them. Just looked back at the BGM article, and the TB starts to roll off highs in the 5-7k range and the treble is centered around 4k-ish. So yeah, not sparkle, but true bass guitar brightness. Also interesting (maybe), is that there's a fixed LPF in the circuit right at the end. No idea what it's set at. Could be just for hiss/noise or could be part of the actual tone.

Originally Posted by Jim C

Rod and others: sounds like the Orange Terror 500 can do clean but just realized they make a 1,000 watt head. I've got to think that 1 kW could equal very clean with plenty of headroom but may loose some of the touch sensitivity and tonal characteristics at sane volumes.

...

I couldn't bring myself to buy any used micro other than Mark bass and Aguilar due to reliability issues. Is the Orange a bad idea on the used market? There are B model (open box / returned) amps on eBay at good pricing.

The touch sensitivity, I'm fairly sure -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- is all in the tube pre. The power amp is fairly standard without much power management stuff going on, at least not like with some other micro's (GB heads or TCE heads). So doubling the power isn't going to change that unless you REALLY need that power (some do, but most I don't think so). You'll just be at a different spot on the master knob. And don't forget the ohm switch - it's a TB500 (@ ~5%THD) and TB1000 (@ ~10%THD) in one. If you want clean, you could run the master wide open and use the gain to set output to get no breakup. But like rodl said, everything's really dependent on what tube's in there, so if the form-factor and feature set work, it's worth tube rolling.

As for reliability, yeah, Orange has been pretty average it seems. That's one thing that pushed me to go with Aguilar. To have a rock-solid little amp made in the US with a stellar service record for about the same price, point to the Tone Hammer. If I bought the Orange new now, I'd consider the refurbs, personally. I've had good luck with refurbs. I'm typing on a 6 yo refurb MacBook -- it's easily the oldest MacBook among my friends and still going strong. My thought is, it got a second round of QC, so there's a bit higher confidence level.

Side-note: if there was a pre-pedal of the TB pre, I'd buy it for sure.

Back to the OP, is it an option to run the WA pre into the effects return of the Aggie? That's another thing that really sold me on the TH500, it's compact enough to use as a power amp OR pre into another (hmm, how have I not thought of trying the TH pre into the VB4!?). I'm not familiar enough with the WA to now how much of the magic is in the power section, but that's worth a shot, too.

[dukeorock]

So many folks just love the WA's tone, but can't work with the low wattage, I've always wondered two things;

Does anyone use it as a pre with a power amp?

Why hasn't Mesa made one with more power?

[speyer]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Rod and others: sounds like the Orange Terror 500 can do clean but just realized they make a 1,000 watt head. I've got to think that 1 kW could equal very clean with plenty of headroom but may loose some of the touch sensitivity and tonal characteristics at sane volumes.

Overall, I'm glad the WA went to a user that doesn't need as much power and I'm very happy with the TH. I can definitely see selling some gear to have the Orange around too.

I couldn't bring myself to buy any used micro other than Mark bass and Aguilar due to reliability issues. Is the Orange a bad idea on the used market? There are B model (open box / returned) amps on eBay at good pricing.

That 1k version is what many of the 'clean' Terror users are buying from... what I understand. TONS on clean headroom I'm sure.

Gary's post above is exactly how I feel about the Orange. It does clean no problem, and It just has its own flavor... very warm and mabye slightly 'wooly' which I hear as just tube goodness.