Amp Size - When does it stop mattering?

Skygoneblue · #1 07-26-2011, 08:00 AM

Hey guys,

Just a little background. I've recently joined a band that's quite ready to head into larger venues for shows (several thousand people possibly). My experience to playing live shows is pretty limited to bars and clubs, and any kind of large *show* I've done has only been at church in a large sanctuary (where I just ran DI with a tuner).

The band's manager is asking me a LOT about amps, and I'm feeling pretty unable to answer a simple question: How much power do we need?

The way I understand it, even in the biggest of shows, your amp will either have a microphone or a DI-out running from it, yet I consistently see bassists with rows and rows of 8x10 cabs on stage. Is that just for stage volume and their own personal benefit?

(And on that note, 10s vs 15s...?)

I guess, in your opinion and/or experience, where is that line where practicality ends and "excessive" begins?

I hope that all made sense...

Thanks!

craig.p · #2 07-26-2011, 08:06 AM

If your bass is going through the mains, aka "FOH," and if there are capable monitors (wedges or IEMs) on stage, then it stops mattering immediately. Some of the biggest praise+worship bands who play for thousands use no amps at all. Some of the largest bluegrass and C&W acts' bass players use either tiny amps or none at all. I'm talking arena venues well into the thousands.

Skygoneblue · #3 07-26-2011, 08:09 AM

And that's what I figured. When I play at church, we use in-ear monitors with our own mixes, so stage volume is redundant.

What I've been thinking is that we basically just need enough for them to hear me at practice, and something that sounds good when it's mic'ed or DIed for a show. Is that pretty fair to say?

The manager keeps asking me about Ampeg full stacks, and I'm thinking, "Wildly unnecessary..." But, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

cableguy · #4 07-26-2011, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skygoneblue

Hey guys,

The band's manager is asking me a LOT about amps, and I'm feeling pretty unable to answer a simple question: How much power do we need?

The way I understand it, even in the biggest of shows, your amp will either have a microphone or a DI-out running from it, yet I consistently see bassists with rows and rows of 8x10 cabs on stage. Is that just for stage volume and their own personal benefit?

I guess, in your opinion and/or experience, where is that line where practicality ends and "excessive" begins?

I hope that all made sense...

Thanks!

I've never played a show that big so take this for what it's worth. As long as you and your band can hear you it doesn't matter. Whether that be by DI & IEM, wedge monitors or massive bass stacks. If the backline is provided and they want to use a lot of cabs, go for it. If they expect you to foot the bill I would use my own amp. (mine is GK 700RB-II fEARFul 12/6-12/sub so neither 10 or 15) and go DI.

georgestrings · #5 07-26-2011, 08:30 AM

IME, a rock bassist that's playing good sized PAYING gigs *should* have a 300-500 watt head that's reliable, and a decent sized cab - either a 610, 810, or 215, or a pair of cabs that amount to the same amount of speakers - besides a good quality DI box... The reason I say this is, relying on monitors and FOH will eventually - if not consistantly - bite you right in the @ss!!! Sure, if you're high enough profile to have an enforceable rider, you'll have no worries - but it doesn't sound like you're anything close to being in that situation...

I will guarantee that for every gig that has enough monitor that your bass rig doesn't matter, there'll be 10 that you'll be wishing you had a decent rig with you - not to mention what your bandmates want/need to hear...

There is a growing trend here to push the "my amp doesn't matter" schpeal, but for *most* rock bands, it simply isn't true IME... FWIW, I've played well over 200 rock gigs in just the last 3 years alone, and have been gigging for around 30 years... Buy a decent head, cab, DI, tuner, good cables, and make sure you have a good bass and a decent backup, and you'll be all set for any situation...

- georgestrings

Bassamatic · #6 07-26-2011, 08:35 AM

YES - the piles of speakers are mostly for show, and may not even be functional. Once you get beyond needing an 8x10 you will be using the house system.

DaveDeVille · #7 07-26-2011, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgestrings

I will guarantee that for every gig that has enough monitor that your bass rig doesn't matter,
there'll be 10 that you'll be wishing you had a decent rig with you -
not to mention what your bandmates want/need to hear...

... Buy a decent head, cab, DI, tuner, good cables, and make sure you have a good bass and a decent backup,
and you'll be all set for any situation...

- georgestrings

what he said ...

georgestrings · #8 07-26-2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassamatic

YES - the piles of speakers are mostly for show, and may not even be functional. Once you get beyond needing an 8x10 you will be using the house system.

Agreed 100% - I've played everything from good sized clubs to outdoor shows w/ a 40 foot stage in front of 10's of thousands, and never needed more than a 700rb-II and a Mesa PH610...

- georgestrings

Gougedeye · #9 07-26-2011, 08:50 AM

Two weeks ago I played a festival infront of 6000 people with a rather large stage and outside to boot. I used my SWR Redhead and a Goliath 4X10. 650 watts and it worked just fine. Best of luck to you!

Skygoneblue · #10 07-26-2011, 08:52 AM

I'm glad to hear I wasn't crazy. Thanks for all the info gents.

As for the other question I snuck in there - 10s vs. 15s - have any of you found there to be any truth to the unwritten rule that 10s are punchy and 15s have no definition, blah blah? I have it in my head that bassists just should use 10s (so, I was only ever looking at 4x10 cabs). But I came across a Markbass 1x12 combo that kicked ass, and couldn't come up with a good reason why that wouldn't get the job done.

nashvillebill · #11 07-26-2011, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassamatic

YES - the piles of speakers are mostly for show, and may not even be functional. Once you get beyond needing an 8x10 you will be using the house system.

Out of curiosity, what band was this?

georgestrings · #12 07-26-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skygoneblue

I'm glad to hear I wasn't crazy. Thanks for all the info gents.

As for the other question I snuck in there - 10s vs. 15s - have any of you found there to be any truth to the unwritten rule that 10s are punchy and 15s have no definition, blah blah? I have it in my head that bassists just should use 10s (so, I was only ever looking at 4x10 cabs). But I came across a Markbass 1x12 combo that kicked ass, and couldn't come up with a good reason why that wouldn't get the job done.

Although I don't think there are any concrete rules regarding speaker size and tonal characteristics, I do find that for the most part, 10s work well for me for metal, modern rock and hard rock, while I prefer 15s for classic rock, blues, and southern rock/country...

Regarding the MB 112 combo - I couldn't even do a rehearsal with ANY 112, let alone a gig, but YMMV...

- georgestrings

Skygoneblue · #13 07-26-2011, 09:06 AM

This is the one I tried out George. Granted it was only in GC, but it was notably louder and stronger than others I played:

Markbass - Mini CMD 121P

Muttleybass · #14 07-26-2011, 09:06 AM

Went on tour backing up a band called Teenage Head in the 80's. He had two 8X10 Ampeg cabs. One was totally empty. It didn't even have speakers in it.

Geddy Lee doesn't even use and amp. Either that or the chicken rottiserie ovens sound delicious...

Once you start going direct, your amp just becomes a sophisticated stage monitor.

Jools4001 · #15 07-26-2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassamatic

YES - the piles of speakers are mostly for show, and may not even be functional. Once you get beyond needing an 8x10 you will be using the house system.

If you get really big, you may be able to dump the wall of 810's and replace them with Chicken Roasters or Washing Machines

Edit: Mutleybass beat me to it

Russell L · #16 07-26-2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skygoneblue

I'm glad to hear I wasn't crazy. Thanks for all the info gents.

As for the other question I snuck in there - 10s vs. 15s - have any of you found there to be any truth to the unwritten rule that 10s are punchy and 15s have no definition, blah blah? I have it in my head that bassists just should use 10s (so, I was only ever looking at 4x10 cabs). But I came across a Markbass 1x12 combo that kicked ass, and couldn't come up with a good reason why that wouldn't get the job done.

Which Markbass combo was that? I have the CMD 121H (one 12", 300w). It hasn't been enough for me outdoors on a large stage. I added one 15" (Markbass Traveler 151P cab) and now it does fine for the same situation. However, my intent is to eventually be running two 15" with a separate head (just my idea), but so far I only have the one 15" cab. Anyway, IMO, a 112 might not quite get you to where you wanna be for onstage sound. My Markbass DIs and mics beautifully, though. If it's the CMD 121P combo that you tried, although it's the same amp and speaker, the smaller cab doesn't seem to have all the lows of my 121H combo.

Something to consider is whether or not YOU will be the one moving your rig around. I got what I got because I don't want to move any more heavy stuff myself. I used to not have to worry about it. Besides, I was on the tour bus or other vehicle anyway, and it would all get done for me, set-up and tear-down. Not so these days, so...

Quickie · #17 07-26-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muttleybass

Geddy Lee doesn't even use and amp. Either that or the chicken rottiserie ovens sound delicious...

GC: What about for live?
Lee: For live I use exactly the same setup but I'll go through some Trace Elliot amps and cabinets which I've been using the last couple of tours, for onstage monitoring. For the front-of-house live it's an ideal system for the front of house, because it's all DI. It gives me a very controlled sound out front in big arenas.

Interviews - Guitar Center

Quote:

Originally Posted by craig.p

If your bass is going through the mains, aka "FOH," and if there are capable monitors (wedges or IEMs) on stage, then it stops mattering immediately. Some of the biggest praise+worship bands who play for thousands use no amps at all. Some of the largest bluegrass and C&W acts' bass players use either tiny amps or none at all. I'm talking arena venues well into the thousands.

Then why is it everyone has this thing about "tone". I will never play without an amp....sheesh.....mic it or take it post pre out.....tone matters.

Skygoneblue · #18 07-26-2011, 09:22 AM

I put a link up above there Russel - it was the 121p combo. You're probably right in that it's a bit small (even though 300w in a combo that size is impressive). I mostly just meant to say it got me thinking that the giant rig probably isn't necessary if something that size can pack such a punch.

I'm glad to hear you're having good experience with a 15 too. I was also considering just going for a Little Mark III and a 15" speaker with a horn/tweeter. Maybe it wouldn't have the punch or articulation as 2 10s, but it would be a good start.

DeathFromBelow · #19 07-26-2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashvillebill

Out of curiosity, what band was this?

If you're talking about the picture, it's Immortal; a Norwegian metal band.

TaylorO' · #20 07-26-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickie

Then why is it everyone has this thing about "tone". I will never play without an amp....sheesh.....mic it or take it post pre out.....tone matters.

Exactly. Playing without an amp is silly, IMO. Thats kinda just "giving up".. Hell i dont even like using the DI. i like how my amp sounds through my cabs. I recorded with a band once, and the guy recording made me run through the board, straight from my bass. i will never ever ever do that again. ever. I dont care what he thinks is best. its MY sound.