Amplifier conundrum

calmb4tehpwn · #1 01-02-2011, 11:45 PM

Hey guys, my issue is straight forward, but I'm worried a solution may not be.

I don't have enough power to run the cab I'd like to run.

Currently I have an SWR 350x running an Eden 2x10 xlt.
Nice little setup, but I've started playing in a new band, and we're playing metal, and I need to be able to get up on a stage without an in house sound system, and be able to compete with the full stacks. So? Upgrade my system.

So, My SWR works fine as a pre-amp, but it's the lack of power that's killing me. I found the perfect Cab I want, but it's an Acme 4x10, and those things are power sucks. 350 will not cut it.

So, my SWR does not have a pre-amp output, otherwise I could just buy a power amp and input into it, so my question is, to power this Acme 4x10, is there some way to easily make my all-in-one amplifier act as a preamp, or am I better off selling the SWR 350 and getting a modular system? I'd rather sell and get a preamp than cannibalize my SWR, because though it might work, it kills it's value. It's a pricey amp, I'd rather collect on it and start from scratch.

Any ideas? Am I missing some possibility? I'm still new to big-boy amplification, so it's entirely possible that there's a simple answer staring me in the face.

Also, hey Riis, just noticed you were on here.

Thanks in advance for all the help.
Michael

Marginal Tom · #2 01-03-2011, 12:08 AM

Call tech support at SWR. It may (or may not) be as simple as using the "out" from the effects loop to drive your power amp.

T-Bird · #3 01-03-2011, 12:13 AM

Hi.

Welcome to TalkBass Michael.

No pre-out?

That's hard to believe given the SWR design goals. At least how they used to be

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marginal Tom

Call tech support at SWR. It may (or may not) be as simple as using the "out" from the effects loop to drive your power amp.

^My vote would go for this.

Regards
Sam

igrok · #4 01-03-2011, 04:46 AM

Just pull up the manual at http://www.swrsound.com/support/manu...fs/350x_om.PDF and you'll find that the effects send explicitly can be used to send signal to a power amp. Also, you could use the DI to send such a signal, and at different levels. So you should be in good shape!

Mark

Zooberwerx · #5 01-03-2011, 05:05 AM

Here's the deal...

Michael (new TBer, neighbor, and all-around nice guy) has an interest in one of my Acme cabs (4 in all). The SWR 350 is a little on the anemic side given the task at hand. I've suggested the addition of a modestly priced used QSC 1450 or equivalent which can be slaved to the SWR. The FX send, as per manual, can be used as a preamp out.

Riis

somegeezer · #6 01-03-2011, 05:08 AM

If it can handle a 210, it should be able to handle a 410. Remember, more watts does not exactly equal more audible volume. More speakers do. So just having the 410, rather than the 210 should be enough to hear yourself through the guitars. I play through a 410 against 2 212s on about half volume with my master volume on about quarter. Hear myself perfectly.

lbwdog · #7 01-03-2011, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somegeezer

If it can handle a 210, it should be able to handle a 410.

Not necessarily so if the 410 is not as sensitive (efficient) as the 210, which is normally the case with Acme. Also, impedance is a factor. If a 210 is 4 Ohm, and the 410 is 8 Ohm, the amp wouldn't produce as much power into the 8 Ohm cab.

Zooberwerx · #8 01-03-2011, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbwdog

Not necessarily so if the 410 is not as sensitive (efficient) as the 210, which is normally the case with Acme. Also, impedance is a factor. If a 210 is 4 Ohm, and the 410 is 8 Ohm, the amp wouldn't produce as much power into the 8 Ohm cab.

This is an 8 ohm enclosure so the SWR would be pushing 240 watts....far short of what I've found to be optimal. Even a single B-2 likes to see 300 watts and upwards.

Riis

warnergt · #9 01-03-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

I've suggested the addition of a modestly priced used QSC 1450 or equivalent which can be slaved to the SWR. The FX send, as per manual, can be used as a preamp out.

Or perhaps an even more modestly priced (and much lighter) Crown XLS1000 or XLS1500.

BassmanPaul · #10 01-03-2011, 10:12 AM

Sounds like you have all the information that the OP needs Riis.

My thought would be to sell the SWR and go full pre/power rather than toting a full head just to use the pre-amp. That said the oP could get there in stages. Power amp first and then could try different pres to fit his goals. I went with the Carvin Bx1500 with one 4Ω B2 per channel. The amp can be bridged into 8Ω without problem.

calmb4tehpwn · #11 01-04-2011, 01:28 PM

Hey, guys! Thanks for all of the great information!
Zooberwerx and I have been talking through email, and he's been helping me work through it. The problem was that the 350x doesn't have the effects out labeled as clearly as a newb like me would like. They have a Line/Direct option that had me befuddled. Now that I know I can use that as a pre-amp out, I plan on sharing my pre-amp, and running the acme 410 through a power amp at 8ohms(yet to decide/purchase, most like a qsc 1450) and run the 210 through my swr at 4ohms.

Once finances allow, I'll trade in the SWR 350x, which is a beautiful rig, and has done me well, for something more suited to my needs.

Thanks guys, for the help, and if anyone's interested in an SWR 350x, let me know.

Zooberwerx · #12 01-04-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmb4tehpwn

Hey, guys! Thanks for all of the great information!
Zooberwerx and I have been talking through email, and he's been helping me work through it. The problem was that the 350x doesn't have the effects out labeled as clearly as a newb like me would like. They have a Line/Direct option that had me befuddled. Now that I know I can use that as a pre-amp out, I plan on sharing my pre-amp, and running the acme 410 through a power amp at 8ohms(yet to decide/purchase, most like a qsc 1450) and run the 210 through my swr at 4ohms.

Once finances allow, I'll trade in the SWR 350x, which is a beautiful rig, and has done me well, for something more suited to my needs.

Thanks guys, for the help, and if anyone's interested in an SWR 350x, let me know.

Looks like the chips are falling in place on this one. We're at an advantage as Michael can drag his SWR head and favorite bass over to my joint. Plan on spending some time trying different combinations of heads (including the SWR 350), preamps, power amps, and Acme B-4 & B-2 enclosures.

Its nice to try-before-you-buy. If he hates the stuff, no problem...we'll plot another course.

Riis

calmb4tehpwn · #13 01-05-2011, 09:15 AM

I sincerely look forward to it. This will be a fun weekend.

So, now that I know the course, what do people suggest for pre-amps? I am looking to replace my bass, since it's not giving the sound I need. My band is currently tuned down to G sharp, and I'm having trouble finding double ball end strings in a gauge that will match.

So, long story short, most of my equipment is getting replaced shortly. For someone who's playing metal, of the "As I Lay Dying" and "Whitechapel" sort, what will give a tone I can be happy with?

Also, while we're at it, who can suggest a good 5er?

I'd like to hear differing opinions on pre-amps, so feel free to get the arguments going, or if there's an established thread on the matter, I'll happily take links.

Thanks again, guys.
Michael

calmb4tehpwn · #14 01-05-2011, 09:24 AM

okay, I'm going to post about the bass strings in the bass forums. Think I'm on to something, just need some advice regarding.

LowDownWays · #15 01-05-2011, 09:28 AM

Can you just add another 210xlt? Pretty efficient cabs. Two of them stacked vertically would get you there.

calmb4tehpwn · #16 01-05-2011, 10:46 AM

It would under normal circumstances, but my band is... loud. We're playing metal at drop G#, so I'm expected to bring the lows. In my experience, edens bring crisp clear tones, but can't support the lows I need. If I mix it with an Acme (which are reknown for their low bringing epicness) I hope to acheive both the crisp and clear notes and the epic prowess. The reason I'm not getting a B2, is because I can't afford new, and Riis is letting go a B4, it's circumstance, not determination.

Once my rig is as desired, I'll let you guys know how it sounds.
I expect amazing results.

Michael

Adam Bomb · #17 01-05-2011, 01:07 PM

Welcome, Michael:

Kind of a mini-derail here, but also kind of not: I am wondering about biamping here. Not at first, when, as I understand it, you will be powering the 210 with the head. Or maybe so. But especially later, when you have a pre and are powering both cabs with a single power amp.

(FYI, biamping means sending all your higher frequencies (say, 100Hz and up) to one cab and the lower freqs to another, rather than sending the entire range to both cabs.)

When I pictured a power amp running an Eden 210 and an Acme 410, my brain said, "Biamp that sucker!" I would imagine that both cabs were designed to operate as full range but I have also heard about Acmes being used as subs. I wonder if biamping would get the most out of each cab's strengths, resulting in more epic bonecrushing powah.

Maybe at least something to think about as you zero in on the powah amp you want.

--Bomb

Zooberwerx · #18 01-05-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Bomb

Welcome, Michael:

Kind of a mini-derail here, but also kind of not: I am wondering about biamping here. Not at first, when, as I understand it, you will be powering the 210 with the head. Or maybe so. But especially later, when you have a pre and are powering both cabs with a single power amp.

(FYI, biamping means sending all your higher frequencies (say, 100Hz and up) to one cab and the lower freqs to another, rather than sending the entire range to both cabs.)

When I pictured a power amp running an Eden 210 and an Acme 410, my brain said, "Biamp that sucker!" I would imagine that both cabs were designed to operate as full range but I have also heard about Acmes being used as subs. I wonder if biamping would get the most out of each cab's strengths, resulting in more epic bonecrushing powah.

Maybe at least something to think about as you zero in on the powah amp you want.

--Bomb

Acme does offer a woofer-only B-2 (I have one) but the enclosure in question is a full-range B-4. Biamping would be counter-productive IME. Once we've determined the Acme meets the OP's needs & tastes, we'll work backwards into power requirements and a handful of cost-conscious preamps options. I am interested to see whether or not the Eden and Acme cabs "play nicely".

Riis

calmb4tehpwn · #19 01-05-2011, 07:18 PM

I'm actually very curious about that myself, Riis. I just ordered a new set of strings, so I can actually play my bass in the range I need to, but it wont come in time. Unfortunately, my bass will sound like complete ass no matter what it's playing through.

I have no experience with Biamping, but I think I have the concept in grasp. It's a nice idea, and I can see why you would bring it up. Since I spoke of having each cab for specific ranges. When I get to that point in my rig, I may try it out, and see how it sounds. I might also look into getting a sub at some point as well, and biamping with intention, but that's another lifetime in price ranges.