Another amp cab question

[joeturbodiesel@]

O.k., I was on SWR's website last night and found out that they have a 410 working pro cabs in 4 and 8 ohm. I have a hartke ha 5000 with two high outputs and two low outputs and is 250 watts per channel @ 4 ohms. I will be using an ampeg B115 cab that is 200 watts @8 ohms and I will plugging that on one of the low outputs. My question is this, Is it possible to put the 4 ohm cab on one of the other outputs even though it doesn't have the same impedence? Or should I get the 8 ohm cab since my ampeg is 8 ohms?

Also, I was thinking of using my hartke 210 cab daisey chained to the ampeg cab as a monitor for the drummer and that would even out the impedence on both outputs by going to 4 ohms with the two 8 ohm cabs now dropping to 4 ohm. I don't know if I need to do that but it would even out the load. Thanks.

[joeturbodiesel@]

no one?

[amos]

I'm a little confused on what you are asking. The total impedence load is what you want to pay attention to. an 8 ohm ampeg b115 cab running with an 8 ohm swr 410 will have a total load of 4 ohm, thus your amp will put out 250 watts.

I don't understand the high/low outputs of the hartke amp. If it's bridgable to 500 watts at 4 ohm, your best bet would be daisy chaining the two 8 ohm cabs.

[tom once dead]

+1 to what amos said.
The best thing to do would be to get the 8 ohm SWR that way if you can easily run those two cabs together if you ever decide to get a different head or use someone else's head.

[joeturbodiesel@]

Well, it has two channels/ two seperate power amps inside so you can run two cabinets independently of each other. IE. One cab on high or low on one side and another cab on high or low on the other side. What I normally do is run my 210 on the high on one side and my b-15 on the other on the low. In other words it has two high outputs and two low outputs. What I want to do is replace the 210 cab with a 410 for a little more balls and daisey the 210 off the b-15 for the drummer. But when I run the b-15 and 210 daiseied, it will be running a 4 ohm load and what I am trying to figure out is, should I buy the 410 cab as a 4 ohm or 8 ohm to have an equal load on both sides or does it even matter. Its just that you can buy them either 4 or 8 ohm if getting new or there is a working man 410 for sale used that is 8 ohm but I wont be getting max power out of my amp for it. I am trying to decide whether to go with the used at 8 ohms or bite the bullet and get a new working pro and then I can get a 4 ohm cab and get more power out of my amp for that channel. I just dont know if it needs to be equal on both sides or not. I hope that explains what I am trying to accomplish and understand better?

[GrowlerBox]

If I understand what you're saying, you are (or plan to be) using one power amp channel for the low end through a 115, and the other for the high end through a 410. On top of that, you're looking to daisy a 210 from the 115. If I'm with you so far, then there may be a few problems.

Low frequencies require significantly more volume in order to be heard than mids and highs, and your 410 is going to kill your 115 in terms of output. And you may kill your 115 by cranking the lows at high volume -- the perfect recipe for speaker blow-out.

That for me is the biggest issue that springs to mind, but as noted, I may be on the wrong track as far as knowing what you're trying to do goes.

[joeturbodiesel@]

That is exactly what I'm trying to do. What I need to know is do I get an 8 or 4 ohm 410 cab. I dont think I'll blow a cab because everything I have is rated for the wattage or more than the amp puts out. Plus we play country so the volume doesnt get out of hand like it would with rock or metal.

[RickenBoogie]

But, a speaker can be blown just the same. What Growler is saying, is low freq's require substantially more power, and thus more speaker, than high freq's. So, the 410 is overkill for the highs, and the 15 is way under gunned for the lows.

[joeturbodiesel@]

Ohhhh. I see. Well the way I have the cross over on the amp set up right now it sounds very even coming out of the low and high outputs but the highs and mids don't drop off the chart volume wise. I have the low pass filter set high and the high pass filter set low so it doesnt sound tinny on the highs and you still get great mids on the low output. It hits hard all throughout the range of frequencies.

what I am really trying to determine though is whether to get the 4 ohm cab or the 8 ohm cab since my 15" cab is 8 ohm. Thanks guys!

[Stumbo]

I suggest you download the manual. It's pretty straight forward. Hartke - 5000

Have you tried bi-amping your current setup? With one 8 ohm cab per side, you'll get 170watts to each side. With the cross over, the 2x10 should give you a decent mid-range and possibly give you the "cut through volume" you need. Try 800hz cross over to start. Use the Balance to....well, balance the cabs.

If the drummer needs a bass monitor, you can try the Effects out to 30-50 watt combo(1x12?)(guitar or bass), turn the bass e.q. way down and he'll be fine. Just get it tilted back or at ear level. Or maybe run the Effects out to a head phone amplifier/ear buds? Alternatively, you can possibly set up closer to the drummer and turn your amp a bit towards him or set your amp back a bit.

The manual had an interesting comment about the dual pre-amp feature: Note that when both Pre-Amp knobs are used at equal settings, the amplifier will be twice as loud as when only one is used. Be sure you have them set at "equal".

Also be sure the speakers are in "phase".

Maybe you can get enough volume with this setup.

Alternatively, I suggest that you check out fEARful's 15/6 cab. Here's a review: fEARful™ Part Ten (10)

Since you can bi-amp, you won't need to have a cross-over. You'll probably need only one cab to get the job done.

Most likely, instead of adding a 4x10 to your current cabs, you'll be able to sell you other cabs to help fund the purchase of a the 15/6. There a new, lightweight (32 lbs or so) that's become available. Check out: Art of Noise Audio Fearful Bass Cabinets - Home. or you can have one built or build your own for a lot less. Based on the current reviews, no regrets.

Otherwise, running your rig with two 8ohm cabs from one amp and a 4 ohm cab from the other amp, if you used the 2x10 as a drummer's monitor and stack the 1x15/4x10 for your bass, the 4x10 will be move more air and have more watss than the 1x15 and be much louder possibly making the 1x15 almost useless. If you use the Balance control to straighten things out, the 2x10 maybe too loud for the drummer and the 1x15 may start to distort in trying to keep up with the 4x10.

You'll also have 3 different cabs with different speaker arrangements on stage and that is not the best way to get good tone, especially from different manufacturers.

[joeturbodiesel@]

I forgot to mention that there is a knob on the amp that allows you to direct more volume to the high or low circuit so that could be adjusted to be more even based on what you're hearing. Mmmm, but I guess that could perpetuate the problem your describing with blowing the speaker right?

[joeturbodiesel@]

I do have the manual but it doesn't tell you whether or not you can mix different impedance cabs together or not. That is what I am trying to figure out.

[Stumbo]

Can't mix a 4ohm and 8ohm cab on one side of your amp. That'll get you below 4 ohms.

Example:
Resistance = (Speaker A x Speaker B) / (Speaker A + Speaker B)
Resistance = (8 Ohms x 8 Ohms) / (8 Ohms + 8 Ohms)
Resistance = 64 / 16
Resistance = 4 Ohms

Your cabs:
8*4/8+4
32/12
2.67 ohms total

If you run them in series you'll get 12ohms and less volume.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by joeturbodiesel@

I do have the manual but it doesn't tell you whether or not you can mix different impedance cabs together or not. That is what I am trying to figure out.

If the two power amps are separate, then each can be loaded independently of the other, and can take whatever its minimum impedance is (probably 4 ohms) irrespective of what the other side is seeing. This is speculation on my part, however -- if want a definitive answer, search under TB users for Larry Hartke and PM him. He's a very helpful guy, by all accounts.

[Stumbo]

Maybe bi-amping with a 4 ohm 4x10 on the low side and the 4 ohm (total) 2x10/1x15 from the high side.
Try different crossover freqs.

Use the 1x15 for the drummer's monitor. Stack the 2x10 with your 4x10 for a cool 6x10 rig. Then use the Balance control to smooth everything out.

The 4x10 will get great low end and the 2x10 for the mid-range should easily get the job done.

Alternatively, lots of guys are using 2x12's these days. A couple of vertically stacked 4ohm 2x12's running full range 500 watts (total) from your rig would be a monster sounding rig.

[joeturbodiesel@]

Thank you so much guys. Y'all have been alot of help . I guess this is more complicated than I thought. I'm scared that if I buy the 410 8 ohm cab it won't get enough juice and I will have already shelled out the $550. Conversely, if I get the 4 ohm cab and it screws up the circuit by not having the correct impedance for what ever the hook up situation is,ie. to much volume out of the 410 cab or freaking out the amp because of the uneven loads. I can't afford a $550 mistake.

[Stumbo]

Just curious, why can't the drummer hear you on stage with your current setup to the point he wants his own bass monitor?

[joeturbodiesel@]

Because I don't go through the pa(long story) and he plays loud. He didn't request it. I just thought it would help him and give me a matching 4 ohm load so my amp would be running even on the 410 side if that is what it needs to do.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by joeturbodiesel@

Thank you so much guys. Y'all have been alot of help . I guess this is more complicated than I thought. I'm scared that if I buy the 410 8 ohm cab it won't get enough juice and I will have already shelled out the $550. Conversely, if I get the 4 ohm cab and it screws up the circuit by not having the correct impedance for what ever the hook up situation is,ie. to much volume out of the 410 cab or freaking out the amp because of the uneven loads. I can't afford a $550 mistake.

Have you PMd Larry Hartke yet? Go on, I dare ya!

[joeturbodiesel@]

Ok. I will. He will probably ask why I am not thinking about a 410 xl or a hydrive but I will do it anyway.