Another cabinet advice thread. BBT110s, Jack 10, fEARful?

[newbold]

Hey y'all.

I've been really interested in building a couple/few BFM Jack 10's for a long time and I'm at the point where, unless I can play one to be sure, I'd like to have my mind made up on this build project.

I play a 5 string with tapewound strings through a Yamaha BBT500 1x10 combo.

As far as the 'tone' I'm looking for - a flexible one.

I really like what I've heard when it comes to defined mids and articulation from the Jack, but from the graphs I see and some impressions I've read I'm unsure about the low end extension even though it's sensitive down to 45hz

I want a small box that can be loud and deep...I know it's hard to get all 3 together, but how close could the Jack 10 bring me to more of the tone I'm after?

Or should I just reverse engineer another BBT110s or 3, or do something else?

Advice?

[rpsands]

The jack 110 can get quite deep for a 10, but not very loud before farting out. It's displacement limited severely on the bottom.

If you want a small box that gets fairly loud and deep there are two options I can think of:
Acme B2 with enough watts behind it
fEarful 12/6

For a "deep" sound I wouldn't recommend any of the Jack cabs; they are bigger than they need to be for optimal <150hz reproduction in order to support the horn. What the size does for you is give you some extra clarity (less distortion) and off-axis performance, and sensitivity in the mids; however, this extra sensitivity is not there down low. Also, all of the gains but the massive sensitivity boost (which for a deep sound you don't want!) can be achieved with a midrange driver.

For a bottom heavy sound you're better off with more drivers in a direct radiating design IMHO, if size is a big concern.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by rpsands

For a "deep" sound I wouldn't recommend any of the Jack cabs; they are bigger than they need to be for optimal <150hz reproduction in order to support the horn. .

The Jacks have just as much low end sensitivity as any other cabs loaded with the same drivers, if not more. The additional midrange sensitivity resulting from the horn loading makes them subjectively seem to have less low end, but that's not the case, they just have more mids.

[ZolkoW]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The Jacks have just as much low end sensitivity as any other cabs loaded with the same drivers, if not more. The additional midrange sensitivity resulting from the horn loading makes them subjectively seem to have less low end, but that's not the case, they just have more mids.

Yes, I think Bill probably knows them
I can't comment on J10s, but as far as my J112 experiences go, I can say that a J12 can replace two direct radiating cabs with the same drivers.
Yes, I need some bass boost if I want that sweet bass extension, but I think it's a good trade since watts in the amp need less car room than in the cab
and the cab can handle the bass.

or maybe I should turn down the mids and half the volume to "achieve" the sound of regular cabs?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by ZolkoW

or maybe I should turn down the mids and half the volume to "achieve" the sound of regular cabs?

Both roads lead to the same destination, more or less. You just want to be sure that any EQ boost in the 50-100Hz range is accompanied with an EQ cut below 50Hz, so you don't waste headroom on something you won't hear.

[ZolkoW]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Both roads lead to the same destination, more or less. You just want to be sure that any EQ boost in the 50-100Hz range is accompanied with an EQ cut below 50Hz, so you don't waste headroom on something you won't hear.

If I understand correctly, I'd better use a bandpass-type EQ on bass frequencies, instead of a low shelf type?
thanks.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The Jacks have just as much low end sensitivity as any other cabs loaded with the same drivers, if not more. The additional midrange sensitivity resulting from the horn loading makes them subjectively seem to have less low end, but that's not the case, they just have more mids.

Yes, but if you don't need the mids, the horn makes the jacks twice as big as they need to be to get the low end the direct radiators would have.

Point being: If you want a cabinet that sounds quite deep, you'll have an easier time using twice the drivers in the jack in the same amount of space and not eq'ing out the midrange.

Or, you could go with an Omni 12/15 or fEarful, far better choices for someone looking for a lot of low end

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by ZolkoW

If I understand correctly, I'd better use a bandpass-type EQ on bass frequencies, instead of a low shelf type?

Yes, either parametric or graphic. A typical shelving EQ will boost the low end all the way down, which is just a waste of amp power and driver excursion below 50Hz. This applies to all amps/cabs, not just Jacks. I don't run any boost below 100 Hz, but I still roll the low end off with my 25 Hz slider all the way down and my 32Hz half way down.

Originally Posted by rpsands

Yes, but if you don't need the mids, the horn makes the jacks twice as big as they need to be to get the low end the direct radiators would have.

The horn does more than give a substantial boost to the mids. This is a J112(Red trace), 4 cu ft net external volume, and a 3012HO loaded reflex box (Green trace), 3 cu ft net external. Both have 45Hz tuning. Measured outdoors, side by side with the same signal. The acoustical loading provided by the horn alters response well below where one might assume that it would.

[newbold]

Not that I intend to close the discussion at all (less than a day into it? come now...) but I'm probably going to get a better idea about how I'm going to approach my rig when I finally go forward and get a lot of opinions, experiences, and potential misconceptions out in the open.

So far I'm getting the feeling that as long as I'm able to scoop mids out of my signal, the Jacks will perform as well as I could probably imagine, but to date it's all in my head.

I'm going to have a lot of time to be able to pick a different build, but I'm leaning heavily toward the Jack10's at this point. I could always go buy a used 210 when the time comes, but I'd rather build my own.

I'm more in the stages of coming up with design cues that will make this look like a professional set of cabs, with a strong emphasis on modularity
(cabs that clamp together, wheels, matching amp head case, grille design that looks seamless when 2, 3, or 4 are stacked together, etc) but in the meantime I'd like to learn what I can to make sure that I'm not going to be as apt to go back to my BBT110 90% of the time because my new build won't do what I want.

Not looking for the craziest sub bass imaginable, but certainly open sounding if I want it to be...

I guess the only way I could illustrate it would be to go from an 'oooooooh' to an 'aaah', where aaah is your entire upper body resonating with ease to the point where it feels like that gleeful exclamation is pouring out the back of your head as much as it's coming out of your mouth and face.

I want to be able to play reggae without thinking that my gear isn't going to be able to fill out the bottom end enough, but want to be able to have defined mids to work with a banjo or fingerstyle guitar player to drive an uptempo indie americana jam, or be hard-hitting enough for rock and roll.

I still think that for the money a Jack build will probably get me where I want to go.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The horn does more than give a substantial boost to the mids. This is a J112(Red trace), 4 cu ft net external volume, and a 3012HO loaded reflex box (Green trace), 3 cu ft net external. Both have 45Hz tuning. Measured outdoors, side by side with the same signal. The acoustical loading provided by the horn alters response well below where one might assume that it would.

I don't pretend to know anything so this is a question not a rhetorical question: Does that "acoustical loading" exchange maximum output for that increase in sensitivity down low?

I didn't feel scads of headroom down low with my Jack while I had it functional; I feel like for someone who wants the flexibility to play loud reggae would be better off with a 12/6 or an O12TB based off my time with the J112.

[newbold]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I didn't feel scads of headroom down low with my Jack while I had it functional; I feel like for someone who wants the flexibility to play loud reggae would be better off with a 12/6 or an O12TB based off my time with the J112.

I guess I'm curious how you EQ'd your rig, rpsands.

I tend to think that if my power section isn't exerting energy on mids that it can use that power on lows. Scooping out signal doesn't effect a cab's sensitivity, so the Jack *should* still be articulate on the mids without having to compensate with boosting too much low end to still get an even response down low.

Did you have that approach or did you just run your amps relatively flat with a big bass boost?


I also have to keep in mind that I'm not going to build just one - I'm looking at 2 to start with 2 more to follow, so the bigger picture is a bit different.

If I build 2 and don't feel that I can't get it done with Jacks (of which I'm doubtful but still curious), I can just go ahead and build an O15TB and get everything that I want for bass with a big cab or with a pair of small speakers...or try for a fEarful build or something else.

I'm going to the Jack for a smaller, modular approach with the added flexibility or a full range pair of speakers for a variety of uses.

Most of my playing isn't with overemphasized lows. I try to make the most of my place in the sonic spectrum and I find it hardest to get my mids to articulate musically and dynamically.

I just want to make sure that I can get around a complete trade off, which I think won't be the case.

[rpsands]

+3db low mods, -3db high mids, 10 o'clok VLE, flat bass, flat treble, varying the bass knob on my bass.

The Jack ran out of gas pretty fast with adding bass knob, unlike the 3015LF 15/6 I own. They are right around the same weight, with the 15/6 a little bit bigger (and costs a lot more in terms of drivers).

I doubt you will be happy with a modular rig of two jack 12s. Two to four Jack 10s, maybe. A jack 12 weighs in around 40lbs and is quite big (22" wide by 18" deep is a big footprint..bigger than my 20.5 x 16.5 fEarful 15/6).

By contrast, the custom cab I built with a 3012HO is 20lbs and ~20 x 13.5 x 13.5. And a J110 will be around 25-30lbs and a small footprint as well.

My recommendation for a Jack 12 would be a straight ahead rock band type guy who can get by with one because of the obscene midrange volume. Its tonal profile is just not that ideal for reggae type stuff, or dub, or similar.

A pair of fEarful 12/6 would be my recommendation if you want a flexible tone profile that is easy to eq and has scads of bottom (figure at least 3db more max volume under 100hz).

[newbold]

Originally Posted by rpsands

+3db low mods, -3db high mids, 10 o'clok VLE, flat bass, flat treble, varying the bass knob on my bass.

I tend to scoop my low mids to save from boosting low end and play a passive Jazz.
You've reminded me of my approach when i was playing my corvette.

Originally Posted by rpsands

I doubt you will be happy with a modular rig of two jack 12s. Two to four Jack 10s, maybe...By contrast, the custom cab I built with a 3012HO is 20lbs and ~20 x 13.5 x 13.5. (and has) a flexible tone profile that is easy to eq and has scads of bottom (figure at least 3db more max volume under 100hz).

Okay, so I at least have another awesome option to look into.

[rpsands]

lol, I think you got me split up there, my 3012HO cab does not have scads of bottom. It's good, but not amazing. Just super light

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I don't pretend to know anything so this is a question not a rhetorical question: Does that "acoustical loading" exchange maximum output for that increase in sensitivity down low?

I didn't feel scads of headroom down low with my Jack while I had it functional; I feel like for someone who wants the flexibility to play loud reggae would be better off with a 12/6 or an O12TB based off my time with the J112.

Reggae has most of its energy contained between 80 and 100 Hz. That's a full octave higher than where most users assume it to be, and why a sealed Fridge or a JBL Scoop have no problems delivering raggae tone. I took RTAs of the Wailers and even through the PA the 40Hz content is down 10dB compared to 80Hz. The source of reggae tone was in '70s vintage cabs that couldn't go both low and loud, but they could go loud with accentuated midbass.

[newbold]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The source of reggae tone was in '70s vintage cabs that couldn't go both low and loud, but they could go loud with accentuated midbass.

That's why I'm not really worried about these cabs, but want to make sure that I can get a more 'open' tone. from my cab upgrade.

[rpsands]

I am well aware of the first harmonic and all that jazz, but the point is the Jack delivers nothing more than a good direct radiator in the region where reggae and other deeply voiced styles live, and cannot get as loud as say, the O12TB or fEarful 12/6 down there.

You can definitely get the tone but it won't capable of the same max volume under 150hz as a 3012LF based cabinet.

[M2roger]

I haven't tried the Jacks, but my Omni 10s can certainly be described as having an "open" tone. Very clear and articulate and punchy-in a slice through the mix like a hot knife through butter kind of way. I have also built the 12/6, and I like it's lows better. It is really good at filling a room/ small club with thick, floor shaking sound. I hope that helps.

[M0ses]

Originally Posted by rpsands

You can definitely get the tone but it won't capable of the same max volume under 150hz as a 3012LF based cabinet.

I don't know where you're getting this. The Jack has more SPL everywhere from 40 - 1k Hz. SPL = volume. Having more mids won't make it quieter. Mids cut more! That's a ridiculously loud cab!!! It's got +10dB at 70 and 500 Hz. 10dB is a gigantic difference.

[newbold]

Well...not *quite* +10db at 70 hz, but certainly more than 5 on that chart.

If I were to EQ out that mid hump (even though that's where my J Bass shines much of the time)it would be a really strong, flat response.