Any "Phase" Problems Stacking A 410 On A 115?

SurferJoe46 · #1 04-05-2010, 11:11 PM

Just concerned about losing some punch or tone.

I don't want to try it if it takes too much away - well, NONE really! I don't want to lose a precious drop of sound.

At the moment I am running all my stuff at ground level on the floor.

That includes the B-450 combo in the center - and the B-115 on one side and the B-410 on the other.

Is that a good stage presence - sound-wise?? I'm sending out 600 Watts that way.

So far all my bandstands are/or have been - on ground level, and next week we get a 1-foot elevated playing platform to work and I think that's too much footprint to keep the sounds clean and not boom with the plywood floor bouncing and such.

So I am thinking about a stack situation. I don't want to stack the B-450 though. It has 2-10s and a horn; just the 115 and the 410.

JimmyM · #2 04-05-2010, 11:18 PM

there can be, sure. there may not be, either. but it's been my experience that there usually is a little at least. plus the 410 is about twice as loud as the 115. but stacking them is a much better way of doing it than splitting up your cabs. that way you get a more consistent sound in the room.

SurferJoe46 · #3 04-05-2010, 11:30 PM

I think the 115 on the bottom will prolly rock the platform - goodie!

But then the 410 is gonna be at MY ear level - or closer anyway - and that might overwhelm me and make me turn down - WHICH I DO NOT WANT TO DO.

What's a guy gonna do who likes the knobs at thirteen o'clock?

BTW ::: this is an outdoor gig.

JimmyM · #4 04-05-2010, 11:48 PM

if you have your cabs below ear level, you'll eq them to sound good at your level and they'll sound completely different to the crowd because they'll be at ear level with the cabs and you won't. put a cab up in the air and you can eq a sound that sounds good to you AND them. and trust me, i seriously doubt you'll have any problem playing way too loud for the gig

**nostatic** · #5 04-06-2010, 12:57 AM

using different speaker sizes at the same time can cause a rip in the space time continuum.

you have been warned...

Sundogue · #6 04-06-2010, 05:13 AM

Never split your rig up onstage. Depending on where one stands, there will be no sound from your cabs at particular frequencies because it will be coming from two sources spread apart and they will cancel each other out.

Your best bet is to stack them. However, if you insist on using mixed cabs (and let me say I'm not opposed to it, though there is a better way to do things) know that the best combination is either 115+210 or 215+410, unless your amp allows you to adjust output levels to each cab. A 115 has slightly more surface area than a 210. I'm not even taking into account each cab's efficiency, but your 410 will overwhelm your 115, essentially making your 115 a heavy cabinet stand for the 410.

phatbass · #7 04-06-2010, 05:24 AM

Just make sure the cabs are in phase with each other, and that all the speakers in the 4 x 10 are in phase.

SurferJoe46 · #8 04-06-2010, 08:47 AM

The cabs and combo amp are all the same brand and bought within days of each other so hopefully they all came off (either) the same assembly line or were wired by the same untrained person - so hopefully if there is a phase problem, it is consistent and therefor NOT a problem - heh heh.

The amp is in the 210 + horn head, so it isn't really possible to leave it out of the system. The cabs, actually ALL the cabs including the combo ON/OFF have switchable horns, so there is a little leeway at that point.

How about just one more question?

Is there any thought to turning - say the 115 at an angle toward the combo at no more than 45º - but still right next to it? Are cab angles forbidden or just an untried idea?

JimmyM · #9 04-06-2010, 08:49 AM

some players with multiple cabs do that for extra dispersion. you could try it.

SurferJoe46 · #10 04-06-2010, 08:50 AM

James - you are awake? I will try that this time to see what I get. Thanks for not laughing at the question.

billfitzmaurice · #11 04-06-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Is there any thought to turning - say the 115 at an angle toward the combo at no more than 45º - but still right next to it? Are cab angles forbidden or just an untried idea?

Put the 115 on the bottom, aimed at the drummer, the other cab on top aimed at you. That will give the best possible result. Having the two cabs side by side will give the worst possible result.

SurferJoe46 · #12 04-06-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Put the 115 on the bottom, aimed at the drummer, the other cab on top aimed at you. That will give the best possible result. Having the two cabs side by side will give the worst possible result.

I noticed a lot of degradation when I tried the side-by-side this past weekend.

That was an open-air situation too and I lost a lot of what I call "chocolate" on the lows.

Is there any advantage in putting the 115 behind the group or on the back wall for a less pointed or aimed effect? I'm thinking sub-woofs as they say that they can be anywhere since a human cannot differentiate the sound source from those low freqs anyway.

That'll keep my 210 and 410 in the front lineup.

Sundogue · #13 04-06-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I noticed a lot of degradation when I tried the side-by-side this past weekend.

That was an open-air situation too and I lost a lot of what I call "chocolate" on the lows.

Is there any advantage in putting the 115 behind the group or on the back wall for a less pointed or aimed effect? I'm thinking sub-woofs as they say that they can be anywhere since a human cannot differentiate the sound source from those low freqs anyway.

That'll keep my 210 and 410 in the front lineup.

Unless you are bi-amping and sending only the sub 100Hz frequencies to the 115, doing what you suggest will only make matters worse.

Let me get this straight...you already have a 210 combo, and then a 410 cab (giving you a 610 essentially) and that is not enough already? Do you have PA support? I'm really not getting what you are trying to accomplish with the 115...unless we're playing a game called "Guess which cab doesn't fit?"

If it were me (and I know it's you...but you asked) I would put the 210 combo on top of the 410 and EQ to taste and adjust volume to suit the overall mix of the band. Then just play and enjoy.

maevinj · #14 04-06-2010, 11:35 AM

Put the 115 on top of the 410.

SurferJoe46 · #15 04-06-2010, 12:31 PM

OK - time to clarify.

I find that although the original combo with the 2-10+horn are really quite impressive, but I added the rest of the lineup to get to the magic 600 Watt potential of the head that's inside the 210 combo/amp.

The addition of the 115 I feel is essential for the low-low and it really rounds out the whole sound I feel. I can sense when it's not firing or being used and when it is.

The other 4-10s are just added icing on the 210 and 415 and that is just for added mid- and upper- punch that the combo already has and also some more overall volume.

I know I'm moving a lot of air here and it's all well and good since I don't usually play at 13 o'clock actually. I seldom get over the mid volume and preamp settings, but feel that if I don't push the unit, it will be better sounding at those lower volume settings.

Hence - the added presence with the added cabs: they don't have to be cranked up or pushed hard to make themselves felt.

So - that's my situation and I am just trying to get some insight as to where I might take this for a setup, relying upon other's bad --- and good experiences with their sound quality issues and successes.

Problematic and germane to the situation is that my playing arenas vary a lot and I can only use the combo/cab with the 210s in most indoor applications or I smite the whole band.

JimmyM · #16 04-06-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

The addition of the 115 I feel is essential for the low-low and it really rounds out the whole sound I feel. I can sense when it's not firing or being used and when it is.

that's engineering by looks. it's not the 115 going lower than the 410. it's you adding another speaker. more speakers always sound better and fuller than fewer. acoustic doesn't give out specs on their stuff (i have no idea why except maybe they have something to hide), but having heard both those cabs quite a few times, i can tell you that the 115 doesn't go any lower than the 410.

aledeville · #17 04-06-2010, 01:48 PM

+1 JimmyM
He really said what had to be said

JimmyM · #18 04-06-2010, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aledeville

+1 JimmyM
He really said what had to be said

i'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble here. just being honest about real world performance. if it's working for him, i'm not trying to talk him out of it. like i said, i've played those acoustic rigs several times and they do sound pretty good.

SurferJoe46 · #19 04-06-2010, 04:57 PM

TY James. I guess it all boils down to a feeling or perception issue.

I just want the people hearing the band having at least some of the same feeling we have performing the stuff. We get a ringside seat (standing?) and we adjust to our ears, but most times we cannot just leave the stand and get to hear what they hear.

RickenBoogie · #20 04-06-2010, 05:14 PM

I must agree with jimmy, once again. The 15 seems an "odd man out" in your rig. It's NOT adding more low end, either. I'm also confused as to how you can run 2 ext cabs from your combo. Are you sure the impedance is correct? If that were my gear, I'd prolly go with the 15 and the 210 combo, since those 2 will balance better than ANY other combination of that gear.