AudioKinesis 112 Part Three

[Chef]

continued from here:
AudioKinesis 1x12 Cab Part Two

[KJung]

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by KJung

Dude, enough already. Yes, I've played two exact fEarful builds (I will have yet another one at the house on Wednesday for a GTG).

Yes, the top end of the LDS 12/6 with the Fatal is somewhat similar to Roger's cab, which is why I like them both so much. Of course the driver sounds very different in the low mids and lows. I prefer Roger's box.

I've played about fifteen 15/6's now with identical drivers and quite a few different crossovers. They all sounded quite similar, and a bit different up top, of course. Not one sounded 'bad'.

And, when you swapped your crossover out, you posted that is was a 'subtle change but you liked it'.

My gosh dude

Back to the Thunderchild.

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

With all due respect, guys, if you want to have a long-winded OT discussion (argument?) about fEarful cabs, please take it off-line.

This is an AudioKinesis thread, right?

I just want to say that comments on crossover design are completely apropos to this thread, especially considering that Duke considers his crossover to be one of the big value adds of his design over the competition.

Making comments like 'the crossover is a distant third after the drivers' is something I think is important to discuss in the light of the TC.

My experience has been over time that I notice the lack of midrange artifacts and an increase in clarity off-axis quite a bit over my earlier crossover. Also, with the old crossover I had engaged the midrange bulb quite a few times, resulting in midrange dropout.

Something I will say is that until you've compared the cabs side by side (as some folks in the fEarful thread have, e.g. ::Bassist:: ) I don't think it's fair to make blanket statements about the crossovers. Likewise, the crossover components and design can make a much bigger difference at volumes in a gigging context. Jamming at medium volumes is different than rocking out or whatever.

All I ask is that you guys listen to Duke's comments on crossover design before you dismiss how important it is.

[steve_rolfeca]

Just checked USPS, and my Thunderchild (112 Acoustic Friendly, with a tilt-back handle underneath) has crossed the border. Hope to have it before the end of the week!

[DLM]

What are some perspectives out there as to purchasing the AF version for electric bass use only...have you found it worth the extra cost vs. benefit?

Thanks.

[IntrepidCellist]

And at the recent Metalguitarist.org gear fest, where people were shocked at how loud, clear, and punchy that combination was:



Hear it being manhandled by my buddy Mike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fab9TBXLAbU

[thudfromafar]

Originally Posted by DLM

What are some perspectives out there as to purchasing the AF version for electric bass use only...have you found it worth the extra cost vs. benefit?

Thanks.

I would not hesitate to buy it for EB only. I've been letting my DB chops/gigs slide for a while and soon I expect to use this cab almost exclusively for EB. It sounds excellent! I also use it for home audio.

[thudfromafar]

I'm waiting for a bass head under $600 that compares to the features and power of my pre/power setup. Only then will I swap out. I use the shuttle 3.0 sometimes which sounds very good but I have needed more clean power on just a few occasions, and I know the TCAF can take it. Actually, the only time I remember wanting more was when I was playing outdoors with a ~70 piece pep band...

[Chef]

TC-AF worth it for electric?

I have thoughts on that
1) the rear ports and rear tweeter made enough diff to two of the drummers I play with that they commented on it. There's enough signal coming out the ports/tweet that they felt like they heard me better.
2) for your own personal enjoyment, with electric, I don't think you'll "notice it actively" very much, especially past moderate volume levels.
3) at lower levels, with DB, it really made things seem richer, and "3D." I talked to Duke about it, and we concur (I think) that the slight timing delay between signal from front and rear signals reaching your ear might have something to do with this.

[steve_rolfeca]

I play electric bass only. I spent the last few years using a Bose L1 system as my main amp. It was pretty much like wearing a giant pair of headphones, where every nuance of my playing jumped out of my monitor system. Since I went back to a conventional head/cab arrangement for health reasons (chronic back trouble), I've had trouble consistently hearing myself as well as I did with the Bose.

I'm 57, and this could be the last cab I ever buy, so I don't mind indulging myself with the AF option. If it gives me even a small improvement in this area, I will consider it money well spent.

As Chef points out, I don't imagine I'll hear a big difference when I'm pumping it out on a loud stage. However, about a third of my work is in quiet, acoustic settings, often under sub-optimal conditions- crowded stages, strangely-shaped rooms, etc. If the AF version helps me to hear myself better in situations where I'm practically on top of or beside my cab, then it's worth it. In situations where I'm playing with a drummer or percussionist, if it helps them to hear me, then it's worth it. Even if all it does is please me during private practice, then it's worth it.

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by rpsands

All I ask is that you guys listen to Duke's comments on crossover design before you dismiss how important it is.

I've had the pleasure of talking to Duke many times over the phone, and he can never emphasize enough how he thinks his real skill of value here is in the crossover design, and how long he'll sit on a design like this just to make sure he's gotten exactly what he wants out of the crossover. I'm absolutely confident the crossover work in the TC is better than what I've heard from a large number of studio monitors, and I'm convinced by Duke that this is really one of the "secrets" of a great speaker.

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Just checked USPS, and my Thunderchild (112 Acoustic Friendly, with a tilt-back handle underneath) has crossed the border. Hope to have it before the end of the week!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

I've had the pleasure of talking to Duke many times over the phone, and he can never emphasize enough how he thinks his real skill of value here is in the crossover design, and how long he'll sit on a design like this just to make sure he's gotten exactly what he wants out of the crossover. I'm absolutely confident the crossover work in the TC is better than what I've heard from a large number of studio monitors, and I'm convinced by Duke that this is really one of the "secrets" of a great speaker.

+1 all the way. Again, my comments above were comparing the various VERY good crossovers I've heard on various12/6 and 15/6 boxes. All sounded very good, and all sounded a bit different. My point was that I didn't hear a lot of difference among cabs with the exact same drivers and various high quality crossovers that crossed over at about the same frequency.

Duke's sounds better than all of them IMO (which is why I gig his cab and not something else), and I think part of that is his custom driver that allows him to crossover a bit higher than these other executions (I think he said around 2K or so), allowing that nice 'top of the driver' midrange to come through a bit prior to his horn kicking in. Very nice!

[DukeLeJeune]

Originally Posted by KJung

...and I think part of that is his custom driver that allows him to crossover a bit higher than these other executions (I think he said around 2K or so), allowing that nice 'top of the driver' midrange to come through a bit prior to his horn kicking in. Very nice!

Thank you sir.

Credit where credit's due, 100% of the driver design kudos go to engineer Jerry McNutt of Eminence. Literally all I did was ask for a 4-ohm version of the 3012LF. He's the one who pushed the parameters in the direction of slightly more top end and slightly higher efficiency, at the inevitable expense of low end extension of course. When I first ran the prototype's parameters through my modelling program, I was disappointed because the low end wasn't as deep as I'd hoped. But then I started thinking about the possibilities, and gradually realized that Jerry had designed for me the woofer I should have asked for, but didn't know was feasible.

Any other manufacturers out there looking for a killer custom woofer, consider my endorsement of Jerry McNutt to be without reservation. If my little cab is competitive, a huge part of that is because of him.

[lomo]

You sound like the pitcher who tosses a no hitter and deflects the credit to the catcher for making good calls. You are a class act, DL

Originally Posted by DukeLeJeune

Thank you sir.

Credit where credit's due, 100% of the driver design kudos go to to engineer Jerry McNutt of Eminence. Literally all I did was ask for a 4-ohm version of the 3012LF. He's the one who pushed the parameters in the direction of slightly more top end and slightly higher efficiency, at the inevitable expense of low end extension of course. When I first ran the prototype's parameters through my modelling program, I was disappointed because the low end wasn't as deep as I'd hoped. But then I started thinking about the possibilities, and gradually realized that Jerry had designed for me the woofer I should have asked for, but didn't know was feasible.

Any other manufacturers out there looking for a killer custom woofer, consider my endorsement of Jerry McNutt to be without reservation. If my little cab is competitive, a huge part of that is because of him.

[DLM]

Chef, why would higher volumes hide the added benefit of the rear tweeter?

Originally Posted by Chef

2) for your own personal enjoyment, with electric, I don't think you'll "notice it actively" very much, especially past moderate volume levels.

P.S. Thanks thudfromafar and steve r. for your replies.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by DLM

Chef, why would higher volumes hide the added benefit of the rear tweeter?



P.S. Thanks thudfromafar and steve r. for your replies.

I would guess that the impact of that rear facing tweeter is very subtle, and most subtle stuff is lost as the band cranks up. If I remember correctly, the primary reason for the rear firing tweeter is to have some '3D' tonal reflection off the back wall. Once you have the front mounted stuff cranking, that sort of thing would be lost, which I guess is why Duke calls it 'Acoustic Friendly'.

Just guessing though, and remembering from earlier posts. I would think if you have the cash, there would be very little downside to having it, especially if you can turn it off and if the 'treble roll-off' affects it similarly to the front horn.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by KJung

If I remember correctly, the primary reason for the rear firing tweeter is to have some '3D' tonal reflection off the back wall. Once you have the front mounted stuff cranking, that sort of thing would be lost, which I guess is why Duke calls it 'Acoustic Friendly'.

Ken,
I think that the "Acoustic Friendly" tweeter is aimed primarily at Double Bassists. You're absolutely correct, as you begin to turn that baby up that tweet is going to disappear. Using a Double Bass you're never going to get to those volume levels anyway, because you're most likely going to get into serious feedback before that tweeter disappears.

Originally Posted by KJung

just guessing though, and remembering from earlier posts. I would think if you have the cash, there would be very little downside to having it, especially if you can turn it off and if the 'treble roll-off' affects it similarly to the front horn.

I remember talking to Duke about trying to build a TC 110 primarily for upright. After he did the modeling, the weight differential between a TC 112, and a TC 110 was so small that it just didn't make sense to go that direction. But once you get him working on a idea, Dukes' got one of those brains that's going to conceptualize a solution coming from a totally different direction. It's pretty amazing that he can do this. A lot of the players on the DB side were asking for a cabinet that could give us a more accurate Double Bass sound, and as usual Duke came up with it.

Ric

[Vic]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

I remember talking to Duke about trying to build a TC 110 primarily for upright. After he did the modeling, the weight differential between a TC 112, and a TC 110 was so small that it just didn't make sense to go that direction.

Keep in mind portability is not the only reason to consider a 110. There could also be tonal considerations.

From what I understand here (don't have mine yet), Duke's TC112 has a reputation for "closing the gap" between the 12 and the horn particularly well for a 112 design, but I think a 110 would do even better, which might be significant to someone... even if it meant losing some low end extension or even "loudness" due to the smaller speaker.

Just a thought.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Vic

Keep in mind portability is not the only reason to consider a 110. There could also be tonal considerations.

From what I understand here (don't have mine yet), Duke's TC112 has a reputation for "closing the gap" between the 12 and the horn particularly well for a 112 design, but I think a 110 would do even better, which might be significant to someone... even if it meant losing some low end extension or even "loudness" due to the smaller speaker.

Just a thought.

I don't think that would be an issue, since the crossover can be adjusted per the driver. I would assume his 15 crossover will sound quite similar to the 12, even though it will be crossed over a bit lower (I assume) to compensate for the lower upper mid output of the 15.

Also, not sure that Eminence ever carried forward their 3010LF driver into production.