AudioKinesis Cabs V!!!!

[DukeLeJeune]

Originally Posted by Bassist30

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo

Sorry 'bout that!

What's the minimum width that would work (like, feet on the cab but amp chassis overhanging a bit)?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by DukeLeJeune

Sorry 'bout that!

What's the minimum width that would work (like, feet on the cab but amp chassis overhanging a bit)?

Yeah, that TC112 or 212 would be around 6" deep I wouldn't bother. I would assume your TC115 sales are primarily the 'compact' versions by a huge margin.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassist30

You have a full bass head for that?

Sort of

[Bassist30]

Cosmetics may not be the issue. Even with alternate composites today people are looking for smaller cabinets amp heads etc. But there is still the factor of frequencies that respond to the cabinet whether its small, not made of wood etc. Now yes Duke as well as you may say there isn't or what duke has said may be slight difference. The difference is an impact on some.
Some players say a guitar cable makes a difference and some say it doesn't or "You will never hear the difference live" effect. Now Duke may want to chime in and honestly say what he hears and what is stated on paper (what is used to determine frequencies),
If there is a difference in a wooded wide body and a "Compact" bodied cabinet. If it is audible live or not is not an answer. That answer comes from the person playing it who in reality may exactly hear a difference, either psychologically or in truth.
Now Duke makes stereo cabinets and I am sure it came down to exact size as well as wood to get it right. The same would be if it were a composite or alternative "lighter woods" used in the same cabinet or rather the style or given name of the speaker/cabinet. Will it create the same results? Or would there be a slight difference? Would there be any difference that would let Duke comfortable to put his name on. Saying I can make a composite and compact , and lighter is all good for many. I am not saying its wrong or right But the question is is a compact TC15 composite, creates the same sound as the Wood wide bodied TC15? I don't want to put my feet up on the wide body
My statement saying "nnnoooooooooo" when I heard that the 12 does not come in wide body did not mean I was disappointed just that I am still, may be even the fewest, that think size does matter. With bass cabinets only, lets not get any idea's.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassist30

Cosmetics may not be the issue. Even with alternate composites today people are looking for smaller cabinets amp heads etc. But there is still the factor of frequencies that respond to the cabinet whether its small, not made of wood etc. Now yes Duke as well as you may say there isn't or what duke has said may be slight difference. The difference is an impact on some.
Some players say a guitar cable makes a difference and some say it doesn't or "You will never hear the difference live" effect. Now Duke may want to chime in and honestly say what he hears and what is stated on paper (what is used to determine frequencies),
If there is a difference in a wooded wide body and a "Compact" bodied cabinet. If it is audible live or not is not an answer. That answer comes from the person playing it who in reality may exactly hear a difference, either psychologically or in truth.
Now Duke makes stereo cabinets and I am sure it came down to exact size as well as wood to get it right. The same would be if it were a composite or alternative "lighter woods" used in the same cabinet or rather the style or given name of the speaker/cabinet. Will it create the same results? Or would there be a slight difference? Would there be any difference that would let Duke comfortable to put his name on. Saying I can make a composite and compact , and lighter is all good for many. I am not saying its wrong or right But the question is is a compact TC15 composite, creates the same sound as the Wood wide bodied TC15? I don't want to put my feet up on the wide body

As long as the internal volume and tuning are the same or similar(which they are in the case of the wide TC115 and compact), these sort of things are IMO trivial. Again, I think you are under the impression that the TC115 and TC115 Widebody are significantly different in size. They are not... it is more of a 'shape' thing.

I had the opportunity to 'test' a BUNCH of 15/6 cabs built by Don Oatman of LDS prior to shipping, some side by side... all in the same room with the same heads and basses, and same player. Components identical. Short and squat, rear ported, front bottom slot ported, side ported, from 'tube ported', tall and thing, lightweigh poplar or full weight 'standard' wood, etc. All sounded identical due to very similar internal volume and identical tuning and components.

I'm sure there would be some slight issues on the scope, but trivial. Tuning, components, internal volume are the key.

Again, Duke's reason for the 'wide' TC115 was so that guys with full racks could have a more stable platform, and also so that the cab would be more aesthetically balanced with a large rack/tube head on top. I think the wide might have just a touch more internal volume, since he had to keep the depth relatively deep to fit those full sized heads. In talking with Duke and Mike, the tonal impact is non-extistent. This is a good thing IMO, allowing different players to get the same great performance in different physical configurations.

I agree with you though, that if the internal volume and tuning were very different (like with the s,m, and l versions of the TecAmp cabs that use the same components but significantly different cabinet sizes and tunings), then that is a different story.

[Chef]

I'm not sayin some folks couldn't hear a difference;
but,
if you could accurately say which was which in a double blind test, I'll buy you a beer or 6.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Chef

I'm not sayin some folks couldn't hear a difference;
but,
if you could accurately say which was which in a double blind test, I'll buy you a beer or 6.

+1 Again, though, I agree with Bassists point that IF Duke designed a 'larger' version of the TC115, for example, things would change quite a bit. However, that wasn't the case with the widebody, which (from earlier discussions I had with Duke and Mike) was an attempt to keep the identical performance in a different form factor that would be more 'large head physically friendly.

[Chef]

Well, jah, sure, if he wanted to build a bigger box, tuned differently, I'm certain people would hear that.
Duke is quite good at meeting his design goals!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Chef

Well, jah, sure, if he wanted to build a bigger box, tuned differently, I'm certain people would hear that.
Duke is quite good at meeting his design goals!

+1 My interpretation of Bassist30's post is that he thought that was the case (i.e., that the 'wide' and 'compact' were significantly different in internal volume and tuning)

[rpsands]

Uh, the compact has slightly less internal volume than the wide, if I recall correctly.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Uh, the compact has slightly less internal volume than the wide, if I recall correctly.

Per my post above, correct. Slightly less internal volume. Trivial. Again, Duke's design goal was to keep the cab as close to the 'tone in his head' (the original design), and provide a more stable platform for those with larger heads.

For those who want a 'bigger' sounding TC112, that is what the TC115 is. VERY similar tonality, much more volume and a touch more perceived low end.

[Bassist30]

Wait a minute Kjung your words and mine are "Significantly" different. That's why I am saying I would like to have Duke chime in. Chef you said Beer? Ill take that bet.

What I am saying. That a cabinet that is Compact with composite or not, different than the wooded wide body of the same speaker style. And that it is the person who buys it that makes the choice. He may hear a difference especially if Duke said there is. The second point I made was that duke makes stereo cabinets. he makes them to the exact way because using a different dimension as well as material will give a different result.

Now there is another way of looking at it also that maybe you will not take offense. Using different material as well as size may be a better result to you not only with carrying it but with sound.

Now it may be insignificant. It may not. But I would like Duke to honestly give his take on it as if there is a significant difference in anyway large or small gives the buyer something to think about. Like those who buy a Lava cable instead of a monster or use a La2a compressor instead of another top end of equal value.

And to make my point accurately. I am not saying there is a difference, but I have an idea there is somewhat a difference, either with sounding deeper or higher, or another intangible that Duke can shed light on. And again I'm not saying one is better. I am saying it gives the buyer something to think about. That is why Duke varies his cabinets to fit the needs of the customer and it should work the same way with the bassist (or other instrumentalist) choice................ I need a beer. Chef where do you live?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassist30

Wait a minute Kjung your words and mine are "Significantly" different. That's why I am saying I would like to have Duke chime in. Chef you said Beer? Ill take that bet.

What I am saying. That a cabinet that is Compact with composite or not, different than the wooded wide body of the same speaker style. And that it is the person who buys it that makes the choice. He may hear a difference especially if Duke said there is. The second point I made was that duke makes stereo cabinets. he makes them to the exact way because using a different dimension as well as material will give a different result.

Now there is another way of looking at it also that maybe you will not take offense. Using different material as well as size may be a better result to you not only with carrying it but with sound.

Now it may be insignificant. It may not. But I would like Duke to honestly give his take on it as if there is a significant difference in anyway large or small gives the buyer something to think about. Like those who buy a Lava cable instead of a monster or use a La2a compressor instead of another top end of equal value.

And to make my point accurately. I am not saying there is a difference, but I have an idea there is somewhat a difference, either with sounding deeper or higher, or another intangible that Duke can shed light on. And again I'm not saying one is better. I am saying it gives the buyer something to think about. That is why Duke varies his cabinets to fit the needs of the customer and it should work the same way with the bassist (or other instrumentalist) choice................ I need a beer. Chef where do you live?

Again, we are talking about two different things here. The 'wide body' versus 'regular' TC115 (which are both discontinued) are very, very close in internal dimensions. I've discussed this with Duke and Mike, and have played both (although not side by side). You might want to peruse the previous Audiokinesis thread, where this was discussed in detail. The wide body is pretty much the same size as the compact, with a wider side to side and narrower front to back, resulting in 'almost' the same internal dimensions. Duke did not design 'two different cabs', but rather 'two different shapes', with the wide mostly eliminating the 'large head hangover' issue with the narrow side to side standard model.

Now, if you are talking about Duke coming out with an entirely different tuning and design in a much larger box (like the fEARful design for example), that makes much sense in that, of course, the sound of the cab (just like the l, m, and s TecAmp cabs) would sound quite a bit different.

However, that would not be a 'wide' model like the TC115 wide, which again was more of a 'physically put a big head on the top' thing. Of course, you couldn't even do that with the TC112, since you would have to significantly change the internal volume and tuning to get it wide enough to put an SVT or whatever on top... impossible to do.

If you are asking Duke to make a very different cab, with lower tuning in a larger box, that, of course, is a reasonable request.

Again, two totally different topics... making a 'wide' TC112 or TC212 with the same tonal profile to fit a large head on top without it overhanging (impossible) versus making a 'larger version of the TC112 or TC212 all together, with different tuning, most likely a different driver (since Duke's OEM 3015 and 3012LF is optimized for the smaller enclosures (TC112, TC115 and TC115W), etc.

Regarding material, Mike reports very little different in the composite versus the wood. I don't hear much tonal different between my wood TC112 and my composite TC115, except for the bigger perceived low end, which results in just a smidge darker tone profile.

Quite frankly, this a moot point anyway, since the 115's are discontinued. IF you want one of these super woofers in a larger box, using a stock 3012LF driver, the single LDS or fEARful 12/6 is impressive... very deep low end due to that single 'stock' driver in the much larger box. Not my thing, but it does sound VERY different down low than the TC cabs.

[KJung]

PS To Bassist30's comment on choosing composite, that is a pretty significant choice. Tonally, zero issue... sounds close enough to being identical to me.

However, it is a very different thing. I would not call them 'fragile' at all, but I would also not choose the composite if I was doing gigs with roadies and/or an equipment truck. They are a bit 'refined' The corners and handles, etc, and not as ruggedlly secured IMO, and there is a bit more 'vibration' of the whole cab, resulting in a micro head vibrating around a bit. And, due to their lower 'sympathetic vibration point', they will lay bare an loose component or rattle in either the head or the cab.

I'm extremely happy with mine, but I do feel a bit more care is required when moving, etc.

[Bassist30]

Originally Posted by KJung

Again, we are talking about two different things here. The 'wide body' versus 'regular' TC115 (which are both discontinued) are very, very close in internal dimensions. I've discussed this with Duke and Mike, and have played both (although not side by side). You might want to peruse the previous Audiokinesis thread, where this was discussed in detail. The wide body is pretty much the same size as the compact, with a wider side to side and narrower front to back, resulting in 'almost' the same internal dimensions. Duke did not design 'two different cabs', but rather 'two different shapes', with the wide mostly eliminating the 'large head hangover' issue with the narrow side to side standard model.

Now, if you are talking about Duke coming out with an entirely different tuning and design in a much larger box (like the fEARful design for example), that makes much sense in that, of course, the sound of the cab (just like the l, m, and s TecAmp cabs) would sound quite a bit different.

However, that would not be a 'wide' model like the TC115 wide, which again was more of a 'physically put a big head on the top' thing. Of course, you couldn't even do that with the TC112, since you would have to significantly change the internal volume and tuning to get it wide enough to put an SVT or whatever on top... impossible to do.

If you are asking Duke to make a very different cab, with lower tuning in a larger box, that, of course, is a reasonable request.

Again, two totally different topics... making a 'wide' TC112 or TC212 with the same tonal profile to fit a large head on top without it overhanging (impossible) versus making a 'larger version of the TC112 or TC212 all together, with different tuning, most likely a different driver (since Duke's OEM 3015 and 3012LF is optimized for the smaller enclosures (TC112, TC115 and TC115W), etc.

Regarding material, Mike reports very little different in the composite versus the wood. I don't hear much tonal different between my wood TC112 and my composite TC115, except for the bigger perceived low end, which results in just a smidge darker tone profile.

Quite frankly, this a moot point anyway, since the 115's are discontinued. IF you want one of these super woofers in a larger box, using a stock 3012LF driver, the single LDS or fEARful 12/6 is impressive... very deep low end due to that single 'stock' driver in the much larger box. Not my thing, but it does sound VERY different down low than the TC cabs.

"Duke did not design 'two different cabs', but rather 'two different shapes', with the wide mostly eliminating the 'large head hangover' issue with the narrow side to side standard model. "

Sorry to say even if they ad up its still a different design. One is narrower than the other. If they look different its a different design. If there is no difference in tone whats so ever I will say OK they are both the same. Personally its no big deal. Its sad that now the TC no longer is available and discontinued. So to go on any longer with this is a waste of time as you said the TC line is discontinued so we all should just have a nice holiday.

[Bassist30]

"However, it is a very different thing. I would not call them 'fragile' at all, but I would also not choose the composite if I was doing gigs with roadies and/or an equipment truck. They are a bit 'refined' The corners and handles, etc, and not as ruggedlly secured IMO, and there is a bit more 'vibration' of the whole cab, resulting in a micro head vibrating around a bit. And, due to their lower 'sympathetic vibration point', they will lay bare an loose component or rattle in either the head or the cab."


So like i said one may be better than the other. All Im asking is if the tonal difference is there or not. They are discontinued so Ill just drink little more at my house. I have the Outlaws today and Im just here to ease my head till I have go back down.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassist30

"Duke did not design 'two different cabs', but rather 'two different shapes', with the wide mostly eliminating the 'large head hangover' issue with the narrow side to side standard model. "

Sorry to say even if they ad up its still a different design. One is narrower than the other. If they look different its a different design. If there is no difference in tone whats so ever I will say OK they are both the same. Personally its no big deal. Its sad that now the TC no longer is available and discontinued. So to go on any longer with this is a waste of time as you said the TC line is discontinued so we all should just have a nice holiday.

Well, I don't know what else to say here. Again, one is 'narrower and deeper', and one is 'wider and more shallow'.

However, just so there is not even more confusion, the TC line is NOT discontinued. The TC115 and the TC115 wide are discontinued due to the number of OEM drivers required in a single order being too many to make business sense for Duke's current cab volume. The TC112 is still inproduction, and Duke has replaced the TC115 (and wide) with the TC212, which uses non OEM 3012LF stock drivers. There is a new TC115 on the way, using a stock 3015LF.

[Bassist30]

Originally Posted by KJung

Well, I don't know what else to say here. Again, one is 'narrower and deeper', and one is 'wider and more shallow'.

However, just so there is not even more confusion, the TC line is NOT discontinued. The TC115 and the TC115 wide are discontinued due to the number of OEM drivers required in a single order being too many to make business sense for Duke's current cab volume. The TC112 is still inproduction, and Duke has replaced the TC115 (and wide) with the TC212, which uses non OEM 3012LF stock drivers. There is a new TC115 on the way, using a stock 3015LF.

Ok I guess Im not seeing it. I just thought a cabinet with different demensions is a different design. One is deeper and narrow and another is shallow and wider.

[IntrepidCellist]

The TC115 Wide and TC115 Compact are designed to sound very similar to each other; the primary difference is form factor, not tone.

There is no TC112 Wide because the 112 is supposed to be as small and light as possible, and making a Wide version while keeping identical internal dimensions would make the cab very shallow front-to-back; an issue when trying to put most micro heads on top (which are usually as deep as they are wide).

[Bassist30]

Originally Posted by IntrepidCellist

The TC115 Wide and TC115 Compact are designed to sound very similar to each other; the primary difference is form factor, not tone.

There is no TC112 Wide because the 112 is supposed to be as small and light as possible, and making a Wide version while keeping identical internal dimensions would make the cab very shallow front-to-back; an issue when trying to put most micro heads on top (which are usually as deep as they are wide).

That is what Kjung is saying. But its just odd that a demension change will not change the tone. Again its no big deal. I don't care cause Im happy with what I got. In all probability there may not be a drastic change. I just would like to hear if there is a change from someone like Duke. like I said he makes high end speakers. Maybe he has heard a change in tone from a change in dememsion as he was building each model he has developed. But again it may not pertain to bass guitar cabinets. But he does make a sweet cabinet (s).