Avalon U5 vs Electro Voice RE-20

[TaySte_2000]

So been having a lot of "something lost in translation" moments with my tone and the PA.

So never quite been happy with my tone through the PA, sounds amazing on stage but apparently gets lots out front. It's not an issue with my sound on stage as it cuts there and sounds great and no one has ever said different. So for years I used the Mesa 400+ xlr out which varies in quality. Next when I used my Alembic F-1X and Mesa Strategy 400 I used the DI out on the Alembic both pre and post eq and neither really cut it.

So my next idea is to get an Avalon U5 (which I now do) and run it on the speaker out of my 400+ into the speaker in jack which I hear is a common approach.

I also managed to acquire an RE-20 in a series of trades and the most obvious solution to this is mic the cab because it sounds how I want it too but always get funny looks from the soundmen when trying to mic a bass cab.

Just wondering what people's opinions are, whats the most tour hardened piece of equipment here, etc etc

Thanks

[Bassmec]

RE 20 every time mate!, back up di incase of amp failure, Sound Engineers like microphones, Sound Technicians usually don't.

[Evanseveneleven]

I have both the U5 and an RE20, and both will do a killer live bass sound, but I also think they are overkill for general live work. If you respect your sound guy, ask him what he thinks. My experience is that most sound guys like the simplest gear possible, and a Radial JDI or a Countryman is more suited to the treatment that will be dished out week to week in a live situation. If your sound guy can't pull a good sound out of a Radial, then an Avalon wont help either. One of the Radials will do the speaker out thing that the Avalon does too, maybe the J48 and the Countryman Type 85 does it too.
That said, if you like your stage sound miking might be an option, but you should suggest it to the sound guy and get him to try it using one of his mics.
Occasionally you will come across a sound guy who just doesn't hear bass well. Either they spend their whole time playing with drums and guitars, or their hearing is shot from too many years of abuse. If you have one of these, there isn't much you can do other play your bass, enjoy the gig as much as you can and come back the next week with a smile.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Evanseveneleven

I have both the U5 and an RE20, and both will do a killer live bass sound, but I also think they are overkill for general live work. If you respect your sound guy, ask him what he thinks. My experience is that most sound guys like the simplest gear possible, and a Radial JDI is more suited to the treatment that will be dished out week to week in a live situation. If your sound guy can't pull a good sound out of a Radial, then an Avalon wont help either. One of the Radials will do the speaker out thing that the Avalon does too, maybe the J48??
That said, if you like your stage sound miking might be an option, but you should suggest it to the sound guy and get him to try it using one of his mics.
Occasionally you will come across a sound guy who just doesn't hear bass well. Either they spend their whole time playing with drums and guitars, or their hearing is shot from too many years of abuse. If you have one of these, there isn't much you can do other play your bass, enjoy the gig as much as you can and come back the next week with a smile.

The U5 is better just used for backup and for reasons of reliability
its better to have it straight off the bass not the speaker output.
If you take speaker out you have still no backup line if the amp fails.
2 engines, 2 gearboxes, 2 ingnitions, 2 batteries, 2 fueltanks =
twice the chance of getting home.
Sound guys have behringer di boxes.
Sound engineers have a little labs phase tool in line with a distressor in the bass channel console insert.

[Evanseveneleven]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Sound guys have behringer di boxes.

Aint it the truth.

[TaySte_2000]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

The U5 is better just used for backup and for reasons of reliability
its better to have it straight off the bass not the speaker output.
If you take speaker out you have still no backup line if the amp fails.
2 engines, 2 gearboxes, 2 ingnitions, 2 batteries, 2 fueltanks =
twice the chance of getting home.
Sound guys have behringer di boxes.
Sound engineers have a little labs phase tool in line with a distressor in the bass channel console insert.

It's only a quick flick of some cables to change the u5 from speaker di to inline di.

But for the rest of it you are right, if I don't use this someone will just want to stick a behringer DI inbetween my bass and my amp, well I don't use a tube amp because I want a workout at gigs, the tone of them is my whole vibe so it has to be something to do with the amp.

I'll see how this gig goes but looks like mic'ing it straight up might be best no matter how much i want that cool avalon face plate on top of my amp

BTW you bored of that AP200 yet :P

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by TaySte_2000

It's only a quick flick of some cables to change the u5 from speaker di to inline di.

But for the rest of it you are right, if I don't use this someone will just want to stick a behringer DI inbetween my bass and my amp, well I don't use a tube amp because I want a workout at gigs, the tone of them is my whole vibe so it has to be something to do with the amp.

I'll see how this gig goes but looks like mic'ing it straight up might be best no matter how much i want that cool avalon face plate on top of my amp

BTW you bored of that AP200 yet :P

Not yet Mate! the old AP 200 is still such a good combination with the old Eden 8 X 10, and whats more I have just given it a birthday with some nice new winged C's which along with the 3 old Brimar's on the pre give it almost the grunt of my old Ampeg svt but with that Hiwatt like ding dang doodley ting tong Bong!, Thing going on, like a real fresh set of strings even if they are a few gigs old. Saves a fortune!.
Its bloody fantastic even if it does weigh 37 kilos.
I can let you have some real Simms Watts Porn though, nice pic of the big as your head Partridge transformers in them as well, Kind curtesy of Boot Soul

Note the Tilly Lamp mantles used to damp the valve retainers in this one. Cool Eh!:

[bobcruz]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Sound guys have behringer di boxes.

+1, but after I saw a Behringer Ultra-DI on the stage at Yoshi's (world class small jazz club in SF Bay Area), I got one to use at our church and it's been bullet-proof. It's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-DI10.../dp/B000CCSWPQ

I don't trust their amps or speakers but my experience with simple components like this DI and some mikes has been positive.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

The U5 is better just used for backup and for reasons of reliability
its better to have it straight off the bass not the speaker output.
If you take speaker out you have still no backup line if the amp fails.

cough coughyou'recrazycough cough



how long does it take to pull the speaker cables out and hook a couple shielded cables, bassmec? jeez, all this time i thought you were one of us!

anyway, both have their strengths and weaknesses. not a fan of the u5 personally, but it will get you a really warm, smooth, clean sound from 20-20k straight in. through the speaker out i've never heard it, but i do like using the speaker out di because it has that tubey/output transformery edge to it that the u5 doesn't get on its own. re-20 will get what the speaker puts out, period. re-20 wins!

and live sound guys try to force di's on you for one of two reasons:

1. they're lazy

2. they're scared

getting a sound with a mic is no harder than getting a sound with a di if you have a good mic, and you do. but then they get all whiny that you're going to sound like something they don't want to hear and they're going to have to fix you at the board. babies. i get so sick of that nonsense. hey, if you think i'm screwing the pooch with my tone, tell me and i'll fix it in my amp. or not if i disagree with you.

bah...i'm in a bad mood today. soundmen get out of my way

[nic salsus]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

and live sound guys try to force di's on you for one of two reasons:

1. they're lazy

2. they're scared

I'd ad:
3. They don't trust us.

If you just use a mic and decide to start making wholesale adjustments to your sound during the set the guy's mix goes for a dump until you're through "experimenting".

[koobie]

Go with the mic if you prefer the sound of your entire signal chain. Lazy sound guys would probably prefer to d.i. the guitar amps too, if the guitarists would let them.

[Munjibunga]

Something's being left out of the equation here. What is the FOH engineer doing with the signal he gets from you? Also, what is the PA system? Is it capable of properly producing a great FOH bass sound? Your problem may have nothing to do with your setup.

Once your signal leaves your DI, your FOH sound is at the mercy of the engineer and PA system. I'd investigate some more on that end before I went out and dumped $500 on an expensive DI. BTW, I agree with those who say a Radial JDI or J48 or a Countryman Type 85 is fine for live situations. I own an Avalon U5 and have used it live, and it sounds great, but not so much better than a J48 that the cost differential is justified.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

cough coughyou'recrazycough cough



how long does it take to pull the speaker cables out and hook a couple shielded cables, bassmec? jeez, all this time i thought you were one of us!

anyway, both have their strengths and weaknesses. not a fan of the u5 personally, but it will get you a really warm, smooth, clean sound from 20-20k straight in. through the speaker out i've never heard it, but i do like using the speaker out di because it has that tubey/output transformery edge to it that the u5 doesn't get on its own. re-20 will get what the speaker puts out, period. re-20 wins!

and live sound guys try to force di's on you for one of two reasons:

1. they're lazy

2. they're scared

getting a sound with a mic is no harder than getting a sound with a di if you have a good mic, and you do. but then they get all whiny that you're going to sound like something they don't want to hear and they're going to have to fix you at the board. babies. i get so sick of that nonsense. hey, if you think i'm screwing the pooch with my tone, tell me and i'll fix it in my amp. or not if i disagree with you.
bah...i'm in a bad mood today. soundmen get out of my way

It would take me no time at all to wack up the emergency bass di fader if a disaster befell the bass amp or cab and my trusty 1st choice microphone was left with nothing but spill.
3. Some sound guys have velcro ears!, check by clapping while standing behind them if they don't respond, its not usually a very good sign.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

It would take me no time at all to wack up the emergency bass di fader if a disaster befell the bass amp or cab and my trusty 1st choice microphone was left with nothing but spill.

i'm sure you have an emergency di for the guitars too, right?

[Bassmec]

Fair point Jimmy! but who the hell cares if one of the guitards amps fail?
Serves him right for playing too bloody loud anyway, there is usually a complete spare guitard anyway.
Its like we use Kick trigger and have mic backup cos thats important, but guitards? They go off unrecoverabley every now and again anyway when they get all excited and bust all their strings, it don't matter like bass though does it!.

[JimmyM]

lol! i guess we do matter a lot more, but still...

[markjazzbassist]

i do half DI, half Mic. the mic (put it on the cone) can get a nice lot of mids/highs for the grind. the DI get's a nice clean thick tone with the whole spectrum. So combined you've got best of both worlds.

[Jim C]

What's better a chainsaw or a skill saw; depends on what I am trying to achieve.

Either of your choices can deliver a professional bass sound; the problem is not with your gear but rather the PA or the operator.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by markjazzbassist

i do half DI, half Mic. the mic (put it on the cone) can get a nice lot of mids/highs for the grind. the DI get's a nice clean thick tone with the whole spectrum. So combined you've got best of both worlds.

This is usually a phase loss nightmare the real low end suffers badly, in larger venues it becomes very apparent and a truly pro setup becomes more complex because not only do you really need a rotational phase tool between microphone and di but you also need another inserted into a group for these channels in the front of house console.
This is to phase align the PA with the back-line source but thats just
if you want it dead right and have access to pro engineering tools.
If we are looking at a Digidesign console like a Venue D then this isn't a problem if you have a waves bundle on it as you could just assign micro delays instead of using two Little Labs Phase Tools and send to monitors from a front of house group.
Sometimes I like to use one phase tool as the di if its an outdoor gig and you might want to mix it in, then you can just sit in the middle of the bass monitors and twiddle the knob till all the real low comes in strong and then send the line from the monitor desk bass
group to the front of house console and set phase angles there against the sample kick. Simples!
PS Marthus uses 100% DDrum triggers live in that case the Kick drum mic's are just backup. Our bass player Dave Pybus is an Ampeg endorsee and is very much a one sound is right (if its the right one) kinda guy.
So to fully capture the awesome bellowing might of his dime'd SVT's we like mic only most of the time. There is more to this than meets the eye but we have got to have it totally sorted, What with the speed the band plays at in patches or it just gets mushy down there.

[Oldtimer]

Sorry to hijack, but what is the Speaker out function of the U5 supposed to do? Also, exactly how do you hook it up? I've had a U5 for a few years cabled Bass>U5 input>Thru>Walter Woods Ultra Hi Power input>Speaker cable>SWR Goliath 410. I can't seem to wrap my head around using it between the Woods speaker out and the Goliath, if that's what your supposed to do! I have visions of SMOKE. Can someone enlighten me?