Avatar 410 vs 212

Black Sheep · #1 08-20-2010, 09:46 PM

I know there are some threads on this, but I just need some clarification regarding tone and low B. I am trying to order something this weekend to use with the BX1500 I just got.

I am turning back in the direction of Avatar, for a few reasons... the 212 is a nice price, and may be good, but need to know how much difference there would be between that and the 410. I usually play in a large, boomy, live room (church) and occasionally other venues. I've been told that sometimes the bass is a little muddy or undefined (with the old 410 I had) I'll be playing a 5, or a 4 fretless.

Any opinions on this particular situation and what might work in a room like that?

clubdude · #2 08-20-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Sheep

I know there are some threads on this, but I just need some clarification regarding tone and low B. I am trying to order something this weekend to use with the BX1500 I just got.

I am turning back in the direction of Avatar, for a few reasons... the 212 is a nice price, and may be good, but need to know how much difference there would be between that and the 410. I usually play in a large, boomy, live room (church) and occasionally other venues. I've been told that sometimes the bass is a little muddy or undefined (with the old 410 I had) I'll be playing a 5, or a 4 fretless.

Any opinions on this particular situation and what might work in a room like that?

I prefer 10's, and I've tried them all. (18's, 15's, 12's, 10's tweeters, horns, etc.) They get you bottom, mid and top end better than any other size, when used in mulitiples. Smaller speakers recover quicker, so they are more responsive to note changes and attack.

As far as your "boomy-ness", it took me a long time to realize the way it sounds onstage is not the way it sounds out in the crowd. While the low bass long sound waves stay, you lose the shorter mid and high sound waves in the crowd. That's why you can hear the bass from a stereo a long ways from the source, but the highs are missing.

So, in addition to recommending multi-10 cabs, I also recommend that you get your bass and treble where you like the tone, and keep adding mids for clarity, or lack of muddiness. My rig on stage sounds very trebly and middy, but you can feel the bottom end. Out in the crowd it sounds deep, but the notes are distinct. Don't be afraid of some fret noise onstage. You won't hear it in the crowd, unless your band plays very low volumes and/or your room has a lot of reverberation.

Just my opinions/experiences. Good luck.
cd

Black Sheep · #3 08-21-2010, 06:39 AM

That is very helpful, as I often think I'm set up pretty well on stage only to hear that it doesn't sound as good in the hall. I think I may need to aim for more mids than I think sounds good on stage, but I'll try to get some more critical ears to comment there, too.

I am actually sort of looking for affirmation that a 2x12 will work, hoping maybe to keep the weight down just a bit, but I could go either way and want to get something that will work.
(actually just saw a used Aguilar GS212 that would compete price-wise with the Avatar 212)

So, the top of my bad GAS condition now is the Avatar 410, Avatar 212, or Aguilar 212.....

evenintheshower · #4 08-21-2010, 10:38 AM

I have an Avatar Neo 410. Any mud coming out of it is easily tamed. I do not have the Avatar 212, but I have used other 12s. I think the 410 is more flexible, more responsive, more hi-fi. FWIW, I am a professional drummer, too, and I use the Avatar 410 cab for my V-Drums setup. I can easily deal with boomy bass drum sounds without any problems. In fact, the 410 seems to handle all the diverse sounds coming from the drums and cymbals with ease and works great with all of my bass guitar needs, too. While I have used 12s just fine with bass guitar, they do not work with my drums because they lack sparkle and are less easily tamed. YMMV, IME, IMO, and so on. At the end of the day, it comes down to what you like to hear and the amplifier you are using.

THORRR · #5 08-21-2010, 10:50 AM

I have TWO Avatar B410 Neo cabs that are killer in all venues. I use only one for the smaller venues and two for the large and outdoor venues and they never fail to impress. Had a professional soundman come onstage after a set at the county fair and said "WHAT IS THAT you're playing through?!! I had to take you out of the main PA because you were so loud and clear on your own!"

I used to play through 15's and 12's but they were always too boomy and not tonal enough for me. I agree with clubdude and highly recommend the 10's. Avatar makes 2-10 cabs and 4-10 cabs, and if you get the Neo speakers the 410's are very managable.

They only weigh 64lbs and this 62-year-old rocker can wrestle them into my back seat solo without a problem.
The 210 cabs are even lighter if that's an issue, but I don't think you'll be disappointed with either of these.

If you still lean toward the 12's there's a good review of the b410 and b212 neos on their website www.avatarspeakers.com that may give you the info you're seeking. Either way, the quality and service they give is top notch. Good luck!

username1 · #6 08-21-2010, 11:51 AM

I think the 410 would handel the low B much better.

MysticMichael · #7 08-21-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubdude

As far as your "boomy-ness", it took me a long time to realize the way it sounds onstage is not the way it sounds out in the crowd. While the low bass long sound waves stay, you lose the shorter mid and high sound waves in the crowd. That's why you can hear the bass from a stereo a long ways from the source, but the highs are missing.

So, in addition to recommending multi-10 cabs, I also recommend that you get your bass and treble where you like the tone, and keep adding mids for clarity, or lack of muddiness. My rig on stage sounds very trebly and middy, but you can feel the bottom end. Out in the crowd it sounds deep, but the notes are distinct. Don't be afraid of some fret noise onstage. You won't hear it in the crowd, unless your band plays very low volumes and/or your room has a lot of reverberation.

Good points. Another solution - assuming you have PA support - is to make sure that you have a balanced feed going to the mixing board - whether that be from a DI, a miked cabinet, a DI + miked cabinet, or whatever.

If you mike the cabinet, point the microphone either toward the midrange driver(s) (if any) and/or tweeter, or position it in such a way as to pick up maximum midrange & highs from one of the woofers (there are ways). Sound reinforcement isn't just about achieving maximum volume (i.e. sound quantity): it's also about achieving maximum clarity & balance (i.e. sound quality).

MM

MysticMichael · #8 08-21-2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THORRR

If you still lean toward the 12's there's a good review of the b410 and b212 neos on their website www.avatarspeakers.com that may give you the info you're seeking.

Unfortunately that review is no longer very relevant, as it was conducted several years ago - before Avatar upgraded to the new, high-Xmax 12-inch woofers that it now uses...

MM

THORRR · #9 08-21-2010, 01:13 PM

We were laughing at the X MAX movement in my 8 10's last night at the gig. The lights were focused at just the right angle to see the linear movement and they looked like they were gonna blast right through the metal grill!

One of the reasons you probably don't need 12s is that these 10s move so much air - there's no reason to go larger.

4 10s move more air than 2 12s. They also punctuate the notes as much or as little as you like. They're very controllable and flexible soundwise.

I use a Fender Active Jazz Deluxe and I can sound like a deep thumping P-Bass when I need to - all the way to bright slap sound. (the b410 neo has a horn tweeter in center that has both a HI and LO crossover and infinitely adjustable volume knob in back)

When I want boom, I can get it. When I want growl, I can get it. When I want to drive with a pick and my palm for a mute, they're like cannons.

(you can tell I like my tens)

Paperbakwriter · #10 08-21-2010, 01:44 PM

get both? :P I have the 212 and I love it, but to be honest I think Im going to switch over to two 210's

Tim C. · #11 08-21-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubdude

Smaller speakers recover quicker, so they are more responsive to note changes and attack.

I don't think this is true.

Tritone · #12 08-21-2010, 01:58 PM

2x12 cabinets are a fine option and can cover any style of playing you need them to...I've been using 2x12 cabinets loaded with Neo Eminence drivers for years (600w)...plenty of lows, nice mids, crisp highs.

lo-freq · #13 08-21-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C.

I don't think this is true.

It depends on the design.

All design parameters being the same, a smaller cone will have less inertia than a larger cone, therefor be quicker to respond to the input signal.

Paperbakwriter · #14 08-21-2010, 03:37 PM

now that this is brought up what are the thoughts on an avatar 410 + 212? Im currently using the 212 and was considering moving to two 210's, but I love the 212 and dont want to get rid of it. Matching it with a 210 might be good too? I hear people complaining about matching different size cabs though so I was just wondering what avatar users though

Black Sheep · #15 08-21-2010, 06:18 PM

Paperbak -
What venues have you used your 212 in? How much power do you push when using it alone?

Paperbakwriter · #16 08-21-2010, 06:41 PM

300 watts, small warehouses, houses, and larger bars. it handles each one of those just fine, playing a variety of music. I love my avatar 212, Im just trying to find the right cab to match with it.

John Bigboote · #17 08-21-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperbakwriter

I love my avatar 212, Im just trying to find the right cab to match with it.

If you love it, then another just like it is the perfect match for it. Exactly the same, only louder!

-jb

Black Sheep · #18 08-21-2010, 09:09 PM

I've been wondering if I can push 400-500 watts through a 212 (rated at 500 or 600) (either the Avatar or an Aggie), and have it work well.

I have a 1x18 that I can add in bi-amping, but most of the time I'd rather use just the one cab, and I think it will be in the neighborhood of 300 watts. Occasionally in other situations I'll need a little more, though...

Ralphdaddy · #19 08-21-2010, 09:15 PM

500-600 watts for an Avatar 212 is plenty of power. They're extremely efficient. I've had three Avatar cabs, I used a 410/212 stack for a couple years and it's a great combo. On its own, the 410 is generally the way to go as I found the 212 a little more boomy and less clear than the 410 but the 212's a great cab with plenty of thump. You can't go wrong and ten pounds doesn't make a bit of difference.