Avatar B210 Kappa Pro...will it handle a...

**jlepre** · #1 09-20-2010, 09:06 AM

Genz Benz 9.0 running at 8 ohms?

I've never heard these drivers, and wonder how well it will handle a low B as well.

If anybody has experience running this cab with a 5 string, please chime in.

Thanks!

agedhorse · #2 09-20-2010, 10:53 AM

Tha Kappa Pro is a pretty good driver but it depends an awful lot on the tuning of the cabinet with the drivers. I would run a simulation to dsee how they hold up, specifically Xmax/mech and port velocity.

**jlepre** · #3 09-20-2010, 10:56 AM

Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have been doing some research, and see that the NEO's seem to have better excursion, so would that be a better way for me to go?

billfitzmaurice · #4 09-20-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlepre

I've never heard these drivers, and wonder how well it will handle a low B as well.

The Kappa Pro Ten is a very nice driver for PA midbass use, but it's not suited at all for electric bass, unless you're running them bi-amped with a 2x18 to handle the low end.

**jlepre** · #5 09-20-2010, 11:26 AM

Bill,

Thank you for your insight. I have seen your experience in speaker/cab builds, and appreciate your honest opinion.

I was going to pair this cab with either another 210 (Epifani UL210) or (Epifani UL212). Would either of these setups provide the lows? I like the idea of the Avatar 210 for more mid punch, but also need the lows.

billfitzmaurice · #6 09-20-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlepre

Bill,

Thank you for your insight. I have seen your experience in speaker/cab builds, and appreciate your honest opinion.

I was going to pair this cab with either another 210 (Epifani UL210) or (Epifani UL212). Would either of these setups provide the lows? I like the idea of the Avatar 210 for more mid punch, but also need the lows.

IMO never mix drivers over the same frequency range. If you're going to use KPro Tens for midbass and above in a bi-amped rig, which is what they were designed to do, fine. Otherwise, not at all.

agedhorse · #7 09-20-2010, 06:44 PM

I don't think they can be called unsuitable without knowing what your needs are. I don't have any of my modeling tools with me, but depending on box size and tuning they might be a good choice for some players. We don't know enough information to know this yet.

Also, mixing similar drivers (in different cabinets) is rarely a problem. It's done all the time and many players find that this works better for their preferential tone. IMO and IME there are no absolutes in bass amplification.

billfitzmaurice · #8 09-20-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

I don't think they can be called unsuitable without knowing what your needs are.

Optimally aligned the KPro Tens have an F3 of 180 Hz. IMO that's unsuitable for electric bass unless used as tops in a bi-amped system.

Quote:

Also, mixing similar drivers (in different cabinets) is rarely a problem.

Similar drivers is one thing. Tens with Qts of .2 on the one hand and .4 on the other are about as dissimilar as it gets.

agedhorse · #9 09-20-2010, 11:11 PM

Sorry Bill, using the Kappa Pro 10a's, my info shows an F3 of about 95Hz for a 210 box, 2 cubic ft and -10dB point in the high 70's. As importantly, with a lower powered amp around 1/2 - 2/3 the RMS rating of the driver, suitable LF eq can be used to shift the equalized response to a -3dB point of around 75-78Hz and a -10dB point in the high 60's.

There are some folks who would choose this response as ideal for their application, maybe not you or me but there is a whole catagory of players who will find this useful.

Adding a cabinet like this to a cabinet with more LF extension would be an acceptable and practical solution for some folks too. Qts makes no difference as the speakers are in different cabinets and if that's the sound some folks might like, all the power to them.

rpsands · #10 09-20-2010, 11:22 PM

I don't know what modeling software you're using but Winisd shows -3db of 180hz -6db of ~90hz for me. Are you sure you're not looking at F6?

With 3db of corrective eq you're looking at a displacement limitation of around 60 watts per driver for real bass use (30 watt sine wave to exceed xmax almost anywhere under 100hz).

The QTS is so low I don't think it's really suitable for bass use. Every driver I model with a qts under .25 seems to fall off rapidly under 200hz or so.

billfitzmaurice · #11 09-21-2010, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

The QTS is so low I don't think it's really suitable for bass use.

+1. There are a few exceptions, the D/K/E140s being the most notable. They work OK with a very low Qts of 0.17, but to do so they have an Fs of 32Hz and even then still only have a 120 Hz F3, requiring a large cabinet extended bass shelf alignment to get a low end with a still less than spectacular 93dB sensitivity at 50 Hz.
Very low Qts drivers have the appeal of high sensitivity above 200 Hz, but to get that they always trade off sensitivity below 200 Hz. JBL knew that, and that's why their SPL ratings for MI drivers were measured from 500 to 2.5kHz. For guitar that's OK, for bass, not really. But at least they were honest enough to say so. You did have to look at the fine print to find that out, but at least there was fine print.

lo_freq_geek · #12 09-21-2010, 08:59 AM

I don't know the technical mumbo jumbo about this driver, but I fried both of mine in this exact cabinet with a 4string and SABDI during a loud-ish rehearsal. The neo replacemnts I installed were fine with the same settings.

**jlepre** · #13 09-21-2010, 09:36 AM

Thanks guys...I have since passed on this cab. It just didn't seem to be what I was looking for.

I want a modular setup, that can be played as standalone, or paired to get the full power of my Genz Benz 9.0.

rpsands · #14 09-21-2010, 09:42 AM

fEarful 12/6's or Jack 12's is how I'd roll

**jlepre** · #15 09-21-2010, 10:26 AM

Who's JACK?

I don't know JACK...

Seriously...

rpsands · #16 09-21-2010, 10:30 AM

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/Jack.html

I own two; they're 35lbs-ish each and as loud as any high end 2x10 with ease.

whocaresnotme · #17 09-21-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The Kappa Pro Ten is a very nice driver for PA midbass use, but it's not suited at all for electric bass, unless you're running them bi-amped with a 2x18 to handle the low end.

Same here. I owned a Avatar 2x10 Kappa and they are very tough speakers that handle about 300 watts each but are lacking tone wise for bass. I like the tone of the Deltas better.

agedhorse · #18 09-21-2010, 10:56 PM

I just ran the box using the data Eminence supplied me in their master database (I don't have a hard copy of this data, just an OEM database file) and using the Kappa Pro 10, I get a -3dB point at 71Hz and a -10dB point at 56Hz for a 1.5CF 210 box and 6" dia x 4" deep port (or equiv total area w/ 2 ports). Displacement limited at 400 watts RMS at ~60Hz.

This is roughly what I expected.

For the Kappa Pro 10A, I get a -3dB point of 83Hz and a -10dB point of 67Hz in a 1.3CF 210 box, 6" dia port 2" deep. I haven't worked with the A version, but for bass gtr I would probably prefer the original version (which I have some experience with) but the midrange voicing may shift the preference one way or the other.

I don't know where the -3dB at 180Hz is coming from, perhaps there is some wrong data in the model you are using? I would suspect possibly a decimal point is incorrect. Same applies to the displacement limited excursion, not what I get.

Also, be sure to defeat the Le parameter (set to 0mH) when graphing to look at the low end mechanism without the effect of the inductance in the higher frequencies as we are interested in the LF knee data only.

rpsands · #19 09-21-2010, 11:13 PM

I cross-checked all the data and everything is correct. I figured out what's going on. I was using a much lower tuning (closer to 50hz) than you were. Your box is tuned to 77hz which while I guess that's OK it's a bit on the high side for electric bass IMHO -- and it results in an upper bass dip at 150hz that's going to make people crank the bass up foolishly.

With the 77hz tuning I get a -3db point of 73hz and -10db of about 60hz.

The downside is your displacement limitation numbers (400w) are accurate...for exceeding Xlim (10.9) not Xmax (3.2). You yourself have enumerated in the past why this is a bad idea and I tend to agree.

With your tuning, the entire cab exceeds xmax @ 40hz with 40 watts (20 watts per driver) without any corrective eq. It furthermore exceeds Xmax at 60hz with 150 watts.

It could sound good with those characteristics, but you'd be blowing drivers left and right without a steep high pass filter at 60hz or so. With a 5-string it gets REALLY scary since the open B exceeds xmax with 10 watts per driver.

agedhorse · #20 09-21-2010, 11:26 PM

Double-check your displacement numbers, something isn't right there either.

At 400 watts RMS into the 210 cabinet (1/2 rated power), I show a displacement at 70Hz of 3.5mm and at 60Hz it's 4.5mm.

I do agree that if it's going to be driven hard, a HPF is necessary and in fact I recommend a HPF for EVERY bass cabinet to get higher reliability at higher powers and have been doing so for as long as I have been designing bass amps. Xlim will be reached at around 35Hz and 400 watts give or take some change.

IF I was designing an amp to match up with this kind of cabinet, I would recommend a 40-45Hz HPF, 24dB/octave with a BW alignment.

As I said, probably not a cabinet that I would find ideal but certainly won't be a bad sounding box and a little dip around 150Hz can be a good thing for some players and styles. There are no absolutes.