Avatar Tweeter blown again.

badstonebass · #1 10-29-2010, 11:54 AM

My tweeter just fried in my Avatar 4x10 last night. This is the second tweeter I have had that did the same. I have one of the older models rated at 1400 Watts not a newer "delta" model.

Excuse my stupidity, but I came late in the game as a bassist and I am NOT familiar with the nuances of bass gear. Is this a COMMON occurence?? As a guitarist I have NEVER had to replace a speaker in 30 years. PA, yes but never on my personal playing gear

Is there a better tweeter to use? UI have tried it but I do not like the sound of the cabinet without the tweeter...seems very muffled.

Would it make a difference in sound if I removed the crossover?

setup

qsc 1450
sansamp rbi
avatar 4x10

JimmyM · #2 10-29-2010, 12:10 PM

removing the crossover will result in bass freqs getting sent to the tweeter. you think it blew quickly as is? take out the crossover and see how long it lasts.

anyway, i don't care what they're rated at...i've never ever seen a 410 that can legit take 1400w. if it even took half that, i'd be surprised. and i think that is why your tweeter keeps blowing...that and it's probably a cheap one. i'd either replace it with the most heavy duty tweeter of its size you can find, or i'd learn how to keep my volume low enough to where they don't blow, or i'd disconnect it and go tweeterless.

badstonebass · #3 10-29-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

removing the crossover will result in bass freqs getting sent to the tweeter. you think it blew quickly as is? take out the crossover and see how long it lasts.

What I meant was NOT putting the tweeter back in....will removing the crossover have any effect on the sound of the drivers?

As well I am not putting 1400 watts into it. That's just the rating.

fenderhutz · #4 10-29-2010, 12:37 PM

Are you running distortion or overdrive. I probably blew three tweeters over the past 10 years with my good ol' ODB-3 engaged and I wasn't even pushing a ton of wattage.

JimmyM · #5 10-29-2010, 12:37 PM

ah, i see...so removing the crossover...if the drivers have any range past the crossover frequency you'll gain it back (most 10"s in bass cabs do). might not be a bad idea. i'm not a fan of tweeters anyway.

badstonebass · #6 10-29-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Are you running distortion or overdrive. I probably blew three tweeters over the past 10 years with my good ol' ODB-3 engaged and I wasn't even pushing a ton of wattage.

no distortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

ah, i see...so removing the crossover...if the drivers have any range past the crossover frequency you'll gain it back (most 10"s in bass cabs do). might not be a bad idea. i'm not a fan of tweeters anyway.

That's what I was hoping. I just wondered if it would work like I assumed it would. I don't "love" the tweeter, it enhances some frequencies I DON'T want, however it holds some that I do....and at my age I need...to hear well.

Back in the day bass cabs never had tweeters anyway did they?

somegeezer · #7 10-29-2010, 12:49 PM

I always have my tweeters switched off. I get a lot of higher frequencies to the woofers that I need anyways.

JimmyM · #8 10-29-2010, 12:52 PM

never saw a tweetered bass cab until at least the early 80's. there were probably a couple in the 70's that had them but i never saw them, and i never once saw piezo tweeters until the 80's. so no, i don't think they're necessary. give me 4-5k and i'm happy.

DWBass · #9 10-29-2010, 01:08 PM

I saw plenty of bass cabs with horns but not tweeters back in the 70's. The switch to tweeters may have been motivated by cost. Some folks had a separate horn cabinet they would sit on top of the regular cab.

craig.p · #10 10-29-2010, 01:39 PM

If you eliminate the tweeter, I suspect you're going to have come up with something to take its place. I suspect the cones alone won't "do it." I say this solely on the basis of the tweeter having blown, indicating you're sending significant energy up into that frequency range, which tells me you're going to miss it when it's gone. Yeah, you could probably force the cones to operate up in that area, but whether or not they'll be happy (or effective) doing that sort of work is not knowable in advance, unless you can obtain a frequency-response plot of the raw drivers. Won't hurt to try, though.

My recommendation for bass cabs in general is to cross over to a 5" or 6" midrange rather than to a tweeter, or to a pair of 5" or 6" midranges, but then the question becomes how much wood surgery and crossover design do you want to do if we're talking about addressing an existing cab's shortcomings. You may want to consider a replacement cab that provides the midrange+treble coverage you're looking for.

anderbass · #11 10-29-2010, 03:33 PM

Have you tried explaining your situation to Avatar? Maybe they have a better designed crossover and tweeter for your model you could upgrade to.

billfitzmaurice · #12 10-29-2010, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anderbass

Have you tried explaining your situation to Avatar? Maybe they have a better designed crossover and tweeter for your model you could upgrade to.

The tweeter is probably not at fault. The crossover probably is. Avatar uses a 2nd order/12dB slope crossover. IMO the minimum acceptable slope for a tweeter high-pass is 3rd order/18dB slope, with 4th order/24dB slope preferred.

Quote:

I have one of the older models rated at 1400 Watts not a newer "delta" model.

Originally Avatar didn't use a crossover, only a capacitor on the tweeter, which is a 1st order/6dB slope high pass filter. If you have that you're lucky you haven't blown a tweeter every gig.

Do a search, a few years back one of the members created a 4th order high-pass filter for his Avatar and shared the design and results.

Quote:

I saw plenty of bass cabs with horns but not tweeters back in the 70's.

Horns are tweeters, at least as used in most bass cabs.

Robman · #13 03-21-2011, 11:15 AM

Over the weekend I smoked the crossover in my Avatar B210 Delta cab. I suspect it is from feeding the cab with the tweeter volume all the way down. I'm running the B210 and an SB115 together at 4 ohms through a Hartke LH1000. I am using slight overdrive from my VT Deluxe along with chorus with phaser from my ME-50B on a few songs.

My question is... Will there be any wiring work to be done if I unplug the tweeter and remove the crossover?

(I'm leaving the tweeter in the cab to plug the hole)

Thanks in advance!!!

fenderhutz · #14 03-21-2011, 11:20 AM

Word to Avatar users, if you turn your tweeter down all of the way slightly roll it back up a tiny inaudible bit.

craig.p · #15 03-21-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robman

Will there be any wiring work to be done if I unplug the tweeter and remove the crossover?

Yes, but it's straightforward. I did the same on my B212 cabs. I cut the wires to the speakers close to the crossover board, unsoldered the wire(s) at one of the phone jacks (going to the crossover board), and soldered the (cut) speaker wires to that phone jack. Speaker (+) to phone jack tip, speaker (-) to phone jack sleeve/body. Connect a speaker cable and test with a flashlight battery to make sure the speakers move outward when the battery is connected (-) to sleeve and (+) to tip. I didn't rewire the second phone jack because I don't daisy-chain. I didn't rewire the speakon, either, because the power I send these things isn't all that much any more. (I think my QSC destroy-the-room days are pretty much gone.) If that changes, though, then I'll have to go back in and rewire the speakon as well. If I do that, then I might pull the crossover right off the plate altogether. Anyway, simple job to set up one or both phone jacks for what you want to do. Ten minutes max, including removing and replacing the crossover plate.

Robman · #16 03-21-2011, 12:55 PM

Cool. Thanks, Craig!

DWBass · #17 03-21-2011, 01:04 PM

I ran an Avatar B210 and a SB112 for 7 years straight using all sorts of amps and never had an issue with either tweeter.

craig.p · #18 03-21-2011, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robman

Cool. Thanks, Craig!

Here's a pic, in case it helps. Piece o' cake job.

huben94 · #19 03-21-2011, 02:59 PM

Another option I have done with a home tweeter speakers , is to put a inline fuse, theres various options also circuit breaker type from speaker building suppliers.

Raychem RXE050 0.50A Polyswitch

craig.p · #20 03-21-2011, 03:48 PM

If you're referring to some kind of interrupter that goes BEFORE the tweeter's LC network, then that's fine. But you should never place an interrupter between the tweeter's LC network and the tweeter itself. (By that I mean post-crossover.) An example would be a thermal cutout or fuse or similar in one of the tweeter wires. If you do that and the cutout opens, then the amp will instantly see what's known as a tank circuit, i.e. a DEAD SHORT at the crossover frequency or at some multiple of it. Some amps can coast through such events, while others will complain rather "loudly" -- and expensively.