Baer Amplification; Part 2!!

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Chef

I think I'm on the downslope, but I'm fickle.

twss

i've fallen, but I can't get up...

[B String]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 There is a LOT of the AE 10 loaded cabs tone in the ML112 to my ear. Not exactly the same of course, but punchy and a very 'organic/paper cone' type top end that reminds me of the AE410. More actual low end, but in the same 'tone universe' as I often say If you dig the AE410 with the Tweeter at 9 o'clock, you will be VERY happy with a couple of ML112's IMO

This is basically what I'm saying too. I very much like the Berg AE210's. If they had just a smidge more lows I'd be in my happy place. The Baer ML112 has that with a slightly smoother low mid.
I have two of the AE210's. This is why I just got an Aguilar TH500. Just oh by the way, my Eden WT400 sounds very nice with the AE210's too.

I think for the most part these two boxes are more alike than not. However, the ML112 is wonderful with my upright bass.

[Saluki]

@nostatic and KJ,

It sounds from the descriptions I have read that the Puma is the same tone universe as the STM900. I switched out the V1 tube to a lower gain 5751 and I am really happy with the tone. I imagine it would sound great with the ML112s, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet because it sound so dang good with the Berg HD210s. Any comments on the Puma/STM comparison.

I am anxiously awaiting nostatic's report on the puma/ML112 combo.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Saluki

@nostatic and KJ,

It sounds from the descriptions I have read that the Puma is the same tone universe as the STM900. I switched out the V1 tube to a lower gain 5751 and I am really happy with the tone. I imagine it would sound great with the ML112s, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet because it sound so dang good with the Berg HD210s. Any comments on the Puma/STM comparison.

I am anxiously awaiting nostatic's report on the puma/ML112 combo.

IMO and IME, the Puma heads have absolutely NOTHING in common with the Streamliner. They are mid present, VERY solid state sounding (but not sterile), have a relatively tight low end and a relatively hi fi top end.

I would call the ORIGINAL Puma heads quite a bit fatter, warmer, and maybe even a bit tubey.... relatively similar to the Glock voicing (not the same of course, but that unusual combination of fat, tubey lows and super hi fi top end). The revoiced Puma's are much more similar to the Markbass F1/F500 than the Streamliner to my ear, based on direct A/Bing.

[nostatic]

What he said. I owned/gigged Streamliner 900, Shuttle 9.0, TH500, RH450, LMTube, and currently Puma 500/900. If I were to put those in a continuum of "tubey" (some might say muddy) to hi-fi (some might call thin):

RH450 - S900 - TH500 - Puma 500 - Shuttle 9.0 - LMTube

Some might swap the positions of the RH450 and S900 but I could eq out some of the fatness in the S900, not so much with the RH450. For me the current Puma is in a sweet spot - it has hi fi aspects to it's tone (fairly open top end, fairly tight low) but can be easily pushed more vintage. The RH450/S900/TH500 all have varying amounts of "warmth" baked in. Of those I found the TH500 most useful, but there is some mid grind you cannot dial out of that amp. However it does overdrive better than the Puma so depends on what you are looking for. The other thing that I didn't like about the TH500 was that the front end didn't have a ton of headroom. My active basses would clip it fairly easily. I had to run the input pad with all my basses and still had to keep the input level low. I like to run my basses hot though, as my Rob Allen has a ton of output and I try to keep my Fodera's roughly similar so I'm not having to re-eq drastically when I change instruments between songs.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by nostatic

If I were to put those in a continuum of "tubey" (some might say muddy) to hi-fi (some might call thin):

RH450 - S900 - TH500 - Puma 500 - Shuttle 9.0 - LMTube

I would almost agree with this. The RH450 is definitely the most tubey on the list. The S900 gets a lot of credit here for being tubey, but IMHO it was just very fat sounding from an EQ perspective that made people think it was extra Tubey. I wouldn't say that it's SS sounding at all either though, but it was rather "in the middle" as many of the hybrid type heads are. I would probably be inclined to put the TH500 2nd on that list in terms of Tube-like responsiveness, though it might not seem that way if you leave the EQ's flat. If you twisted knobs on the TH500 to get the same response curve that is native on the S900, and use the Drive knob then I think the T500 does a much better job of feeling like a tube head.

The LMTube is a joke, IMHO, and a complete waste of a tube.

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by Eublet

I would almost agree with this. The RH450 is definitely the most tubey on the list. The S900 gets a lot of credit here for being tubey, but IMHO it was just very fat sounding from an EQ perspective that made people think it was extra Tubey. I wouldn't say that it's SS sounding at all either though, but it was rather "in the middle" as many of the hybrid type heads are. I would probably be inclined to put the TH500 2nd on that list in terms of Tube-like responsiveness, though it might not seem that way if you leave the EQ's flat. If you twisted knobs on the TH500 to get the same response curve that is native on the S900, and use the Drive knob then I think the T500 does a much better job of feeling like a tube head.

The LMTube is a joke, IMHO, and a complete waste of a tube.

Dude, Cannot emphasize how much I am blown away with the Orange TB500h. Has two Preamp tubes and has the midrange complexity and sweetness that I loved from my Mesa Walkabout, but with the power, punch and slam of 500W's!(Switchable to deliver 500W's into 4 OR 8 ohm load)

Compared the Orange Terror TB500h Directly to the TH500 and both me and another TB bass player friend preferred the Orange Terror TB500h. Tubey, yet articulate, punchy and grindy. Mmmm, GOOD stuff guys!

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

Dude, Cannot emphasize how much I am blown away with the Orange TB500h. Has two Preamp tubes and has the midrange complexity and sweetness that I loved from my Mesa Walkabout, but with the power, punch and slam of 500W's!(Switchable to deliver 500W's into 4 OR 8 ohm load)

Compared the Orange Terror TB500h Directly to the TH500 and both me and another TB bass player friend preferred the Orange Terror TB500h. Tubey, yet articulate, punchy and grindy. Mmmm, GOOD stuff guys!

Having only heard the TB500h on Youtube, I can definitely hear that tube-like response and feel which goes further than just an EQ adjustment. If that kind of feel is coming across in a compressed youtube video, then I'm sure it is there in spades when auditioned in person. You've officially given me GAS because I love that tone and response. Have you used the DI out on it? I'm wondering if that same feel translates through the DI also, or if they're doing something unique with the power section such that it only shows up there?

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by Eublet

Having only heard the TB500h on Youtube, I can definitely hear that tube-like response and feel which goes further than just an EQ adjustment. If that kind of feel is coming across in a compressed youtube video, then I'm sure it is there in spades when auditioned in person. You've officially given me GAS because I love that tone and response. Have you used the DI out on it? I'm wondering if that same feel translates through the DI also, or if they're doing something unique with the power section such that it only shows up there?

Hey Jason, yes I used the DI Out on the Orange Terror TB500H on both gigs last weekend. Flawless! The sound guy, who is a really good musician sought me out more than once to compliment my bass tone! (none of which he would have heard from my Bergie Cab all the way back at the soundboard. He was only hearing FOH / DI sound. It was Superb!

The punch from the Orange Terror TB500h has a percussiveness that kicks, but is articulate at the same time. It's tubey, but defined at the same time. The tubeyness comes through more in the complexity of the mids. They are harmonically sweet in the way only a tube amp sounds (IME), but the mids also seem to have a baked in grind, mild distortion. It cleans up well, but has a fatness and complexity that I am flipping out over. Especially great for current top40/blues, rock, dance material. Old School Motown is awesome and funk tunes have more 'meat' on the bones in the upper mids and treble. This is not a Marcus amp, but I still slap and pop on tunes like "Kiss" and do funk solo's and I am thrilled!

Back to the thread, since the Baer cabs have been compared favorably to Bergantino AE210's, I think the Baer ML112 might be my next small cab or small paired stack to mate with the Orange. Still contemplating, but leaning this direction.

My reservation however is that the Orange TB500h already tames my horn loaded Bergie AE410. So I'm afraid the meatier, no-horn Baer ML112 with the Orange might be too much taming of the highs. That said, the Orange Midrange is complex and cuts and grinds exceptionally well. That always translates into a great sound in the band mix IME/IMO.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

Hey Jason, yes I used the DI Out on the Orange Terror TB500H on both gigs last weekend. Flawless! The sound guy, who is a really good musician sought me out more than once to compliment my bass tone! (none of which he would have heard from my Bergie Cab all the way back at the soundboard. He was only hearing FOH / DI sound. It was Superb!

The punch from the Orange Terror TB500h has a percussiveness that kicks, but is articulate at the same time. It's tubey, but defined at the same time. The tubeyness comes through more in the complexity of the mids. They are harmonically sweet in the way only a tube amp sounds (IME), but the mids also seem to have a baked in grind, mild distortion. It cleans up well, but has a fatness and complexity that I am flipping out over. Especially great for current top40/blues, rock, dance material. Old School Motown is awesome and funk tunes have more 'meat' on the bones in the upper mids and treble. This is not a Marcus amp, but I still slap and pop on tunes like "Kiss" and do funk solo's and I am thrilled!

Sounds perfect! Thanks for the derail. Sorry to encourage it further, but FWIW, I've recently picked up a Catlinbread SFT which I've quickly become fascinated with. It adds that mid-complexity and tube feel to your tone in a way I've truly never experienced from any pedal. Worth a try for folks who are interested.

My reservation however is that the Orange TB500h already tames my horn loaded Bergie AE410. So I'm afraid the meatier, no-horn Baer ML112 with the Orange might be too much taming of the highs. That said, the Orange Midrange is complex and cuts and grinds exceptionally well. That always translates into a great sound in the band mix IME/IMO.

If all the reports hold true for you though, the ML112's mid drive should better translate that meaty, slightly gritty tone better than any tweeter-loaded cab. I've never found any tweeterized-cab (new term alert!) that did particularly well with grit and overdrive. You often wind up having to turn the tweeters way down or completely off, but that cuts off the upper mids and lower treble too abruptly which ruins the overall effect IMO.

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by Eublet

Sounds perfect! Thanks for the derail. Sorry to encourage it further, but FWIW, I've recently picked up a Catlinbread SFT which I've quickly become fascinated with. It adds that mid-complexity and tube feel to your tone in a way I've truly never experienced from any pedal. Worth a try for folks who are interested.

If all the reports hold true for you though, the ML112's mid drive should better translate that meaty, slightly gritty tone better than any tweeter-loaded cab. I've never found any tweeterized-cab (new term alert!) that did particularly well with grit and overdrive. You often wind up having to turn the tweeters way down or completely off, but that cuts off the upper mids and lower treble too abruptly which ruins the overall effect IMO.

You may be right about the ML112 translating the grind and punch nicely. This could indeed be the case. But I would not characterize the sound I am getting, or wanting, as "overdrive". The mids have some baked in grit. True enough. But I am still getting plenty of definition. I am starting to believe that tweeters are not where my sonic 'true north' lives anymore. LOL ....Only one way to find out I suppose.

Hey Roger, wdid you ever consider a horn loadedversion of your ML112? Maybe with a defeatable tweeter or attenuator? Just curious.

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

You may be right about the ML112 translating the grind and punch nicely. This could indeed be the case. But I would not characterize the sound I am getting, or wanting, as "overdrive". The mids have some baked in grit. True enough.

Same here...I don't want overdrive at all, but it seems to me that getting just enough grit in my tone always feels impossible with a tweeter. The SFT is fixing that for me amazingly well right now because of the way it handles the grit in the low mids without a lot of upper-mid harshness. In a mix, my preferred tone would be described as clean probably, but when heard solo, there's a slight breakup going on in the mids that makes everything sound very fat. I think the ML112 would help translate that better into the audience such that I wouldn't have to push that grit quite so hard and make it sound more authentic.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

You may be right about the ML112 translating the grind and punch nicely. This could indeed be the case. But I would not characterize the sound I am getting, or wanting, as "overdrive". The mids have some baked in grit. True enough. But I am still getting plenty of definition. I am starting to believe that tweeters are not where my sonic 'true north' lives anymore. LOL ....Only one way to find out I suppose.

Hey Roger, wdid you ever consider a horn loadedversion of your ML112? Maybe with a defeatable tweeter or attenuator? Just curious.

Just FYI, the Faital mid driver than Roger uses extends quite high. KILLER slap tone. The only thing you might miss is that last 6K+ edge to the top end of the treble. Unless you are truly trying to emulate Mark King or Marcus Miller, you won't miss it at all, and actually, might find your slap tone penetrating through the guitars and cymbals better than having a dip in the lower treble and most of the energy happening at 5K+ with a typical tweeter.

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by Eublet

Same here...I don't want overdrive at all, but it seems to me that getting just enough grit in my tone always feels impossible with a tweeter. The SFT is fixing that for me amazingly well right now because of the way it handles the grit in the low mids without a lot of upper-mid harshness. In a mix, my preferred tone would be described as clean probably, but when heard solo, there's a slight breakup going on in the mids that makes everything sound very fat. I think the ML112 would help translate that better into the audience such that I wouldn't have to push that grit quite so hard and make it sound more authentic.

You just described 'exactly what I am getting from the Orange Terror TB500h. .....WithOUT having to use a pedal.

And Ken's post about the Faital driver extending quite high and getting meatier highs? ..This meets with my favor quite nicely too!

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

Dude, Cannot emphasize how much I am blown away with the Orange TB500h. Has two Preamp tubes and has the midrange complexity and sweetness that I loved from my Mesa Walkabout, but with the power, punch and slam of 500W's!(Switchable to deliver 500W's into 4 OR 8 ohm load)

Compared the Orange Terror TB500h Directly to the TH500 and both me and another TB bass player friend preferred the Orange Terror TB500h. Tubey, yet articulate, punchy and grindy. Mmmm, GOOD stuff guys!

I've been playing my TB500 a lot lately, and like you, I am digging it a lot. I posted this back in March, I believe, but I'll show it again:



The Terror Bass 500 really goes great with the ML-112's!

[Smallequestrian]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

I've been playing my TB500 a lot lately, and like you, I am digging it a lot. I posted this back in March, I believe, but I'll show it again:



The Terror Bass 500 really goes great with the ML-112's!

I liked the sound of it a lot, but did you find you run out of clean headroom pretty quickly? I think it does and awesome rock sound, but it seemed to start breaking up earlier than I would have liked.

That head made me look for an Orange-like overdrive pedal though which has made me pretty happy.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

Hey Roger, wdid you ever consider a horn loadedversion of your ML112? Maybe with a defeatable tweeter or attenuator? Just curious.

Hey Gary, I think that putting a horn to the ML112's would add very little in the way of usable frequency response and kind of goes against the essence of what these cabs are all about. We developed these cabs to be an alternative for guys who don't typically like horn loaded cabs, myself included. Don't let the term "mid driver" mislead you. In terms of the frequency response of our instrument, these drivers deliver plenty of top end and have a really great snap in the 4k to 7k range.

What most of our users seem to enjoy is a top end that has some weight to it. Slap tones don't have that airy sizzle that some players might need, but most guys are finding that the slap tone of the ML's hits very hard and sits in a place within the mix that really makes them stand out. With the ML's, the top end isn't adding noise within the cymbal range, so you get the added added benefit of being able to turn up the treble on your amp without adding hiss above 10k. So, turning up the treble on your amp adds a crisp high end with bite, but not hiss, which is the whole point behind these cabs. I'm sure at some point we will delve into horn loaded cabs, but for the moment, I'm really enjoying exploring a method of building bass cabs that are considered out of the norm and seeing where that will take us.

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Hey Gary, I think that putting a horn to the ML112's would add very little in the way of usable frequency response and kind of goes against the essence of what these cabs are all about. We developed these cabs to be an alternative for guys who don't typically like horn loaded cabs, myself included. Don't let the term "mid driver" mislead you. In terms of the frequency response of our instrument, these drivers deliver plenty of top end and have a really great snap in the 4k to 7k range.

What most of our users seem to enjoy is a top end that has some weight to it. Slap tones don't have that airy sizzle that some players might need, but most guys are finding that the slap tone of the ML's hit very hard and sits in a place within the mix that really makes them stand out. With the ML's, the top end isn't adding noise within the cymbal range, so you get the added added benefit of being able to turn up the treble on your amp without adding hiss above 10k. So, turning up the treble on your amp adds a crisp high end with bite, but not hiss, which is the whole point behind these cabs. I'm sure at some point we will delve into horn loaded cabs, but for the moment, I'm really enjoying exploring a method of building bass cabs that are considered out of the norm and seeing where that will take us.

Awesome Roger. Thanks! Makes great sense ... and I have a feeling we will be in 'close touch' very soon. :-)

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by GRoberts

and I have a feeling we will be in 'close touch' very soon. :-)

must...not...channel...16 year old son...

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Smallequestrian

I liked the sound of it a lot, but did you find you run out of clean headroom pretty quickly? I think it does and awesome rock sound, but it seemed to start breaking up earlier than I would have liked.

That head made me look for an Orange-like overdrive pedal though which has made me pretty happy.

If you keep the Gain knob down pretty low, I feel that you can get a good bit of "pretty clean" headroom out of the TB500. It's probably not the most pristine sounding head out there, even at its "cleanest," but played in a mix, I find that I can keep it fairly clean and plenty loud. Of course, the overdriven tones are there, too, which is a bonus.

Looking at our review from issue #6, I see that on the bench, Tom Lees was getting 519w continuous, 972w burst, out of the TB500 into a 4-ohm load and at 5% THD, which is reasonably clean, in my book.