Baer Amplification; Part 2!!

[gillento]

Thanks Ken,

I am quite sure I won't get a db750, though.
I've got 3 great amps right now

[CTC564]

Perhaps a dopey question but can the same results be achieved from having aTone Hammer pedal vs. the TH500?

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by CTC564

Perhaps a dopey question but can the same results be achieved from having aTone Hammer pedal vs. the TH500?

They sound identical. There is a little less variation in how the AGS circuit works on the pedal, but it's minor IMO. They are voiced identically. If you already have a good head you like with plenty of power that has an FX return, picking up the pedal is a great option to add some flexibility pretty cheaply. The TH pedal is a great DI also that is always in my gig bag. When turned off, it is a perfectly flat and pristine active DI. Engaged it gives you an active EQ with that Aguilar warmth. Turn on the AGS and it becomes a vintage cab simulator with grit and overdrive capabilities. It's like 3 DI's in one.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by CTC564

Perhaps a dopey question but can the same results be achieved from having aTone Hammer pedal vs. the TH500?

Pretty close. However, one of the things that is pretty impressive about the TH500 is the very open, deep, powerful uncompressed low end. As one who loves the Markbass F500 (as an example), the TH500 seems like it has 300 more watts, regarding open, full, uncompressed low end. Of course, it doesn't have the clean articulation of the F500, but every amp has its positives and negatives. The primary positive for me of the TH500 is (besides making a P Bass sound like the voice of god), the surprisingly open, fat, deep, massive bottom that a 4 pound amp can put out.

Tonally, though, the pedal would get you 75% there or more (if you don't use the variable drive of the head or the 'on/off' drive button of the pedal much).

The TH500 has much in common with the TC RH450/750, but with MUCH less compression and much more actual extension in the low end.

Edit: Again, not pushing the TH500 in general. It has a very specific tonality and vibe that it does very well. My posts were referencing the post commenting on how good the DB750 sounds with Roger's cabs (which makes TOTAL sense, since the ML112 to me can be described in some ways in the same tone universe as the DB112 with better mechanical specs and a more even top end, etc.). In the spirit of Roger's relatively lightweight cabs, if you dig a warm, midrange complex, deep low end, somewhat growly tone, the TH500 will get you there pretty darn well in a 4 pound box with a discounted price typically under $600)! It is a bit like a more 'aggressive' Streamliner (which also sounds glorious with the ML112 in a somewhat different way... big, clean, smooth and tubey) with much more midrange capability/complexity.

[Eublet]

I have an RH750 arriving today that I'm going to enjoy testing with the ML112.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Eublet

I have an RH750 arriving today that I'm going to enjoy testing with the ML112.

That should work quite well also, as long as you don't need the big low end in your tone. The RH750 still seems to have that very hard 'hi pass' set quite high like the RH450. That can sound very good though, depending on the tone you are going for, and continues to impress for those trying to vibe a more 'vintage sealed cab' sort of thing.

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by Eublet

I have an RH750 arriving today that I'm going to enjoy testing with the ML112.

I will be interested to hear your feedback, it is an amp that I really like the idea of but has never really charmed me when I have played through it

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by KJung

That should work quite well also, as long as you don't need the big low end in your tone. The RH750 still seems to have that very hard 'hi pass' set quite high like the RH450. That can sound very good though, depending on the tone you are going for, and continues to impress for those trying to vibe a more 'vintage sealed cab' sort of thing.

Yeah, that is what I want, the HPF. The HPF on the Tone Hammer only really kicks in to any significant degree when the Drive control is well past noon, but at that point, the LPF on the top end is also significantly engaged, and there is no control over that at all. Even then the HPF on the Tone Hammer is not quite as aggressive as I would like. I prefer to have an HPF that is always on, much like with the Genz Benz heads, and then have control over the top end attenuation.

The RH450 to me sounds great with the ML112, and though it's not quite as punchy as the TH500, it does a better job of the vintage thing. I've only played with the RH750 briefly a couple times in the past, and was very impressed with it. Per TC's specs, there is about another 200+ watts of bursting capability with the RH750 over the 450. Sheer volume of course was never an issue with the 450 as it is a hella loud head, but the RH750 is much more punchy that I recall. I know the vibe those heads have isn't for everyone, but I still love that tone, and my RH450 has been in a local studio here in town and has been used on a few albums that get national air play, and it always sounds fantastic. I'm really expecting this to be about as close to "the rig" for me as I have ever gotten. We'll see though.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Eublet

Yeah, that is what I want, the HPF. The HPF on the Tone Hammer only really kicks in to any significant degree when the Drive control is well past noon, but at that point, the LPF on the top end is also significantly engaged, and there is no control over that at all. Even then the HPF on the Tone Hammer is not quite as aggressive as I would like. I prefer to have an HPF that is always on, much like with the Genz Benz heads, and then have control over the top end attenuation.

The RH450 to me sounds great with the ML112, and though it's not quite as punchy as the TH500, it does a better job of the vintage thing. I've only played with the RH750 briefly a couple times in the past, and was very impressed with it. Per TC's specs, there is about another 200+ watts of bursting capability with the RH750 over the 450. Sheer volume of course was never an issue with the 450 as it is a hella loud head, but the RH750 is much more punchy that I recall. I know the vibe those heads have isn't for everyone, but I still love that tone, and my RH450 has been in a local studio here in town and has been used on a few albums that get national air play, and it always sounds fantastic. I'm really expecting this to be about as close to "the rig" for me as I have ever gotten. We'll see though.

+1 to all points. The drive control does a nice job of vibing a kind of sealed cab thing, but slices off both the top and bottom simultaneously (as you point out).... kind of like the baked in tone of the RH450. The 750 (as you know from our participation in the 'revoicing/RH450 update' project (which was a blast!), they opened up the top end with the 750... very nice!

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by nordyboy

I will be interested to hear your feedback, it is an amp that I really like the idea of but has never really charmed me when I have played through it

I think it's the power section with the APM that does it for some people. On the RH450, it gets very loud but it does it in a way that some might not appreciate. On the Blacksmith however, which has the exact same preamp, that thing is capable of some very serious output such that it wallops before the APM really starts doing it's thing. Still the APM is not what many on this forum have accused it of being, and even on the Blacksmith at lower output settings it is shaping the tone and response of the head in a way you either like or don't like. I love it personally, but wanted a little more punch on the attack which is what both the RH750 and the BG250 have, even over the Blacksmith. The Blacksmith and the RH450 are more identical in the APM implementation in that the max output of the head and the burst capabilities are set to be identical. On the RH750 and BG250, the APM is opened up a bit to allow more transient attack, which IMO makes them sound even more like a legit tube head, slightly punchier, but still with some control. Very cool to me.

As much as I loved the Tone Hammer 500 and the pedal for their tone, neither have a tube feel to me at all. They sound very warm and aggressive in the mids, and would break up well with the AGS if you drove them, but there was almost no tube-like sag in the feel or response on the head at all, which for me at least hindered the ability to play it like a "rock" head on the gig. Things you could normally do with a P bass for example just didn't work with the TH500 at all because the head didn't respond and breath like a tube head or for that matter something with a bunch of MOSFET's in the power section like the DB750 or Mesa Walkabout. The TC heads IME let you get that same kind of feel going on. You can get a little crazy with your technique, and instead of it coming out like a punchy mess, it kind of dips and sags such that comes across as very musical. Hard to explain what I'm trying to say, but if you have ever heard Mutemath's self-titled album, it is full of that kind of P-bass thing. Very loud, very driven, lots of 'sliding around' on the strings and grabbing octaves in a way that only a tube head can let you pull off in the same way. It's fun to play like that in the right setting...didn't really work with the Tone Hammer for me. YMMV.

FWIW, GRoberts had me really looking at the Orange TB500 a couple weeks ago, which I still have not tried. I did read the BGM article and listened to a lot of clips. I was thinking of picking up one of those instead of the RH750, but one thing that scared me off was that huge burst rating which is quite impressive, but I don't think it would let me accomplish what I just described and might actually work against my goals. I really don't want a tube-sounding head to have a big burst rating. I want it to compress and breath a bit when I slam it.

Anyway, a bit of a derail here. The ML112 is what lead me to finally pick up the RH750. The Tone Hammer is a good choice for that cab, but I'm looking for something a little more. I might have to try the Valkyrie also. The ML112 is working out great for me so far, and if the RH750 is a slam then I'll be buying another ML!

[KJung]

Agree totally on your descriptions above. My more 'vintage' (for lack of a better term... warm, not totally clean, etc.) sort of amp history is 'Walkabout (not enough power) to MPulse600 (plenty of power, too much low end bloom) to RH450 (a bit too compressed up top and down low) to Streamliner (almost perfect, but only with very specific cabs for me given the strong voicing combined with somewhat limited EQ... Bob Glaub heaven with the ML112 though!) to finally the TH500 (unusual combination of HUGE down low, but still the punchiest of the bunch with no 'tube drama' issues, etc.).

They all sound quite different while being in somewhat of the same vibe/tone universe (midrange/harmonic complexity maybe... hard to describe), and I agree the TH500 is the least 'tubey feeling' of the bunch. I guess my PBass tone is more influenced by Ready Freddie Washington, and the 'Thrust/Paul Jackson' stuff, the Meter's stuff... a bit more punchy, immediate, but still rough and a bit growly but BIG down low. The TH500, through a cab like the ML112 (tight and bright) really works for that vibe. I think George Porter Jr. is now gigging a TH500.

Different strokes... lots of good stuff out there at the moment vibing that 'fat growly' sort of vibe in their own way.

[KJung]

Sorry for the OT on heads Roger Since all these sort of 'tubey voiced' (for lack of a better term) heads work WONDERFULLY with your ML112, hopefully the posts are still in the spirit of optimizing that wonderful 112 for various users. Of course, when your own head comes out, the vibe on this will change a bit

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by KJung

Sorry for the OT on heads Roger Since all these sort of 'tubey voiced' (for lack of a better term) heads work WONDERFULLY with your ML112, hopefully the posts are still in the spirit of optimizing that wonderful 112 for various users. Of course, when your own head comes out, the vibe on this will change a bit

Agreed! I was actually considering an NV610 a couple years ago because I was tired of horns and didn't like any of the other options I was finding, so the ML112 is really working out for me at the moment. It's hard to talk about a cab without discussing how different heads match up with it. Thus far, nothing I've tried with it sounds anything less than really good so far. I'm just still looking for that Holy Grail perhaps.

The Valkyrie looks fantastic, especially the EQ section. That's the kind of control that could really make the head work with any cab or most any user's tone goals. I'll be interested in trying one when they are available!

[nordyboy]

I'm just waiting for Roger to pull his finger out

[Eublet]

Originally Posted by nordyboy

I'm just waiting for Roger to pull his finger out

[kringle77]

I was really considering the ml212 but the wide, short form factor with no tilt back wheels or handle is a bit of a deal breaker for me. I dont' want to carry a 70lb cab and dollys are more pain than they are worth in the places I play. For this reason, a pair of ml112 would probably be beter for me. I also like how they can be stacked horizontally and then tilt the top cab up alittle for better monitoring. You would also then have the option of leaving one in your truck and bringing the other into the house to enjoy between gigs. Just an observation.

[Chef]

I've done the "stack two horizontal, with an amp wedge in-between to angle the top cab up" thing.

It works well for me.
I think I posted a pic of that some time back.....

[Addison]

Originally Posted by kringle77

I was really considering the ml212 but the wide, short form factor with no tilt back wheels or handle is a bit of a deal breaker for me. I dont' want to carry a 70lb cab and dollys are more pain than they are worth in the places I play.

I'll quote an email I received from Roger:

Caster kit [for the ML212] is $65. The caster plates attach with 2 machine screws which are already installed into tee-nuts in the cab. You just remove the screws and install the caster plate, no drilling needed. We chose a nice 2 1/2" wheel, that slide in and out of the plates very easily.

So... if you're worried about mobility, there's your problem solved.

[Ewo]

So far I've stacked my pair of ML112s vertically, in clubs. Gets the micro head (either a TH500 or F500) to a convenient height, minimizes the footprint on a small stage, and puts the mid driver closer to my head.

BTW, my band auditioned a singer last night and his brother (a drummer) tagged along. They both seemed pretty experienced and knowledgeable, and the tone of my single ML112 with the F500 knocked 'em out. They made a point of saying so, and I don't think it was gratuitous schmooze, either. I grew up in the Peoples' Republic of New Jersey (a/k/a "the attitude capital of the world"), so my BS filter is well-developed...

[CTC564]

LMAO...

"I grew up in the Peoples' Republic of New Jersey (a/k/a "the attitude capital of the world"), so my BS filter is well-developed..."

If I knew how to add a signature line, THIS would be perfect!!!

Thanks for the laugh