Baer Amplification ML112

[EscapeNote]

I just got my 2nd ML112 today. The pair of ML112's sounds great!

I have a couple of thoughts on the recent posts which mention an "upper mid bump and aggressiveness" in the Baer cabs. In my experience so far with the ML112, if I leave the treble/mid EQ settings on my bass and preamp the same as they are when I'm using my other cabs - Bergs and Aguilars - then yes, by comparison, the Baer's sound a LOT hotter in the mids/upper mids. However, what I'm finding is that when using the ML112's I can roll my treble and mids back to something closer to flat on the bass and preamp and the resulting sound is warmer, more natural sounding (to my ears) and yet still more detailed than what I've been used to.

So, IME, I don't perceive the Baer's as having a bump. If anything, they seem to me more 'flat' by comparison to other cabs I'm familiar with.

Interestingly enough, since I didn't buy both cabs at the same time, I'm getting a good opportunity to gauge for myself the validity of the notion that cabs need to be 'broken in'. In the little manual that comes with the cab Roger advises a break in period, during which the "drivers surround will loosen up" and the low end response of the cab will increase. The first thing I did when I un-boxed the new cab was to do a side by side comparison.

The ML112 that I've been using and which is theoretically well broken in by now has very full, punchy lows, overall a very well balanced cab to my ears. It handles my Sadowsky B string better than my other cabs. By comparison, the new ML112 that came in today has nowhere near as much bottom end; the difference between the two is immediately apparent (serial #'s 45 and 55 respectively). I think I remember the first ML112 sounding much like this new one when I first plugged it in, so I'm inclined to think there's definitely something to this notion that speakers go through a break in period. I'm interested to hear how they'll sound side by side after I've put a few more miles on this newest cab...

[CTC564]

I ordered mine one at a time as well and had much the same experience as you did regarding brand new and broken in...

I've played SWR and Eden 4x10 cabs most of the past 20 years and while I "thought" my cabs sounded great (went with Baer's due to size and weight) my eyes/ears were opened to a much broader/fuller even sound across my entire fretboard...and they're INCREDIBLY responsive to my playing all while my Shuttlemax 9.2's EQ remains very close to flat...

I've played roundwound and flatwound strings through both types of cabs and it all sounds much better with the Baer ML-112 stack than anything I've previously experienced...

In fact, I'm so pleased with them that I've offered a couple of friend's the chance to use my rig at their gig in order to share all the Baer goodness!!!

[g4string]

Originally Posted by CTC564

....In fact, I'm so pleased with them that I've offered a couple of friend's the chance to use my rig at their gig in order to share all the Baer goodness!!!

You're a brave man!! I wouldn't lend my gear to anybody!!

[CTC564]

These are good friend's who have helped me plenty of times in the past and I will be at the gigs...

[CTC564]

And it's like free advertising for Roger...

:-)

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by EscapeNote

I'm inclined to think there's definitely something to this notion that speakers go through a break in period.

It's a well known fact to those who understand how speakers work. The disavowal of driver break-in by those who don't is a 'notion'.
You just can't easily tell the difference between a broken in versus virgin driver because the break in in process is gradual, unless you have both side by side to compare.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by EscapeNote

..I have a couple of thoughts on the recent posts which mention an "upper mid bump and aggressiveness" in the Baer cabs. In my experience so far with the ML112, if I leave the treble/mid EQ settings on my bass and preamp the same as they are when I'm using my other cabs - Bergs and Aguilars - then yes, by comparison, the Baer's sound a LOT hotter in the mids/upper mids. However, what I'm finding is that when using the ML112's I can roll my treble and mids back to something closer to flat on the bass and preamp and the resulting sound is warmer, more natural sounding (to my ears) and yet still more detailed than what I've been used to.

So, IME, I don't perceive the Baer's as having a bump. If anything, they seem to me more 'flat' by comparison to other cabs I'm familiar with...

Here's my thoughts on the "mid forwardness" of these cabs. There's a couple things going on with the traditional woofer/tweeter cabinet that have left our ears as bassist, used to hearing attenuated upper mids from our cabs. First off, in a lot of traditional cabs the top end of the woofers are rolling off before the crossover point where the tweeter kicks in. As a result, there is actually a dip in the upper mids. In cabs that use drivers with a good top end extension, the upper mids are there, but they are becoming highly directional well before the point where the tweeter kicks in. So, the end result is either an attenuated high mid response from the cab, or an upper mid region that has become quite directional and is beaming in a straight line outward from the cab. Because you are most likely off axis while playing, you once again hear this as a dip in the upper mids. Now with the ML112's, we crossover to the 6" mid driver quite a bit lower than where a tweeter is crossed over at, so the result is no upper mid dip and better dispersion of those upper mids. So, no dip to start with and more upper mids hitting your ear off axis. This results in your ears hearing the cab as "mid forward" cab, because more mids are hitting your ears. Now, add that to the fact that we keep the low end tight and punchy, rather than deep and huge and you have a cab that may sound "mid forward" in your living room, but will take on quite another personality on stage.

You also bring up a very important point with regards to "warming" these cabs up. These cabs were really designed to give me a certain sound with our Valkyrie amplifier. That amp has a really flat response curve and the upper mids and top end peak of the ML112's work really well with that amp. Now, a lot of amps out there have response curves that are anything but flat and can have baked in EQ curves with considerable top end boost. With these amps and the ML112's, it's possible that you may have to do something us bass players are just not used to doing with our amps... turning down the treble. We are so conditioned to turning up the treble that it just seems unnatural to have to turn it down, but it's the perfect way to warm up the sound of the ML112's. And, as any good mixing engineer will tell you, it's always better to subtract EQ rather than add it. If you want to warm up the ML112's and hear more low end, turn down the treble (or upper mids with a semi parametric eq) rather than turning up the bass. You get a warmer sounding cab without asking your drivers to deal with extra load of a lot of low end EQ boost.

[tlvernon]

When will Valkerie be available?

[Chef]

Roger:
great post, and this does indeed mirror my gig experience from last night. Well said, and, well explained.

[Chef]

Sadowsky MV5JJ>Walkabout>2xBaer ML112:

This is a wonderful pairing.
The cabs are nice and efficient, delivering planty of gig volume, and nice heft without being flubby, at all..
The mid driver delivers nice, easy top end; and; does nicely musical things to the Walkabout's grit/OD.
I started with my eq where it normally is, 50hz trimmed, 4khz boosted, and, ended up flat, as the ML bass doesn't blubbler, it stays nice and tight, and well, they don't need treble added.

I swapped in the GK MBFusion after first set, and I'm just coming to the conclusion that I'm no longer a Walkabout guy.
The GK hits harder, quicker, cleaner; and, that's "just more me" anymore.
The ML112 mid driver certainly doesn't lack any treble response, and the GK "still sounds very GK," though "a little more vintage-y" and "not modern/shiny/aggressive" as it does thru a GK horn loaded cab..
I started with the eq where I normally do, bass trimmed a bit, low mid boosted a bit, high mids flat, treble boosted a hair...
Again, I set bass back to flat, left low mids boosted a hair, treble trimmed a little.

The Sadowsky MV5JJ (single coils) has plenty of bass, treble, and grit to it.
I ran with VTC shut 20% or so all night, and bass and treble both boosted just a bit.

With these settings, for both amps, I was able to make all tonal adjustments needed very well via simple tweak of right hand placement and attack, and small changes in VTC and pup bias.

Pretty neat cabs.
They're a nice middle ground between some of the current 301X-LF loaded cabs, which can feel "big bottom, kinda sterile," and traditional cabs.


Roger; if the covers that came with them are yours, they're very nice as well.

[monsterthompson]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Now, add that to the fact that we keep the low end tight and punchy, rather than deep and huge and you have a cab that may sound "mid forward" in your living room, but will take on quite another personality on stage.

Yup. Still mid-present, but the woofer starts playing a bigger sonic role.

[cusar5]

Any word on the ML115? I'm very tempted to pull the trigger on a ML112 right now, but the "vintage" description that Roger gave the 15 sounded like it was right up my alley.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Chef

Roger; if the covers that came with them are yours, they're very nice as well.

FYI, I ordered those covers from Roger, Chef.

[jnewmark]

This has probably been answered before, but, is the ML112 based on some variation of the 3012HO ? If so, I can understand why some like them over the LF versions of these drivers. I have a cab loaded with two HO's and I love it, and don't feel a lack of low end at all with these drivers, actually cutting a bit at 50 hz like Chef does.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Chef

Sadowsky MV5JJ>Walkabout>2xBaer ML112:

This is a wonderful pairing.
The cabs are nice and efficient, delivering planty of gig volume, and nice heft without being flubby, at all..
The mid driver delivers nice, easy top end; and; does nicely musical things to the Walkabout's grit/OD.
I started with my eq where it normally is, 50hz trimmed, 4khz boosted, and, ended up flat, as the ML bass doesn't blubbler, it stays nice and tight, and well, they don't need treble added.

I swapped in the GK MBFusion after first set, and I'm just coming to the conclusion that I'm no longer a Walkabout guy.
The GK hits harder, quicker, cleaner; and, that's "just more me" anymore.
The ML112 mid driver certainly doesn't lack any treble response, and the GK "still sounds very GK," though "a little more vintage-y" and "not modern/shiny/aggressive" as it does thru a GK horn loaded cab..
I started with the eq where I normally do, bass trimmed a bit, low mid boosted a bit, high mids flat, treble boosted a hair...
Again, I set bass back to flat, left low mids boosted a hair, treble trimmed a little.

The Sadowsky MV5JJ (single coils) has plenty of bass, treble, and grit to it.
I ran with VTC shut 20% or so all night, and bass and treble both boosted just a bit.

With these settings, for both amps, I was able to make all tonal adjustments needed very well via simple tweak of right hand placement and attack, and small changes in VTC and pup bias.

Pretty neat cabs.
They're a nice middle ground between some of the current 301X-LF loaded cabs, which can feel "big bottom, kinda sterile," and traditional cabs.


Roger; if the covers that came with them are yours, they're very nice as well.

+1 Perfect review that captures what these cabs sound like. They sound like GREAT bass cabs, and Roger has done a great job of making this design (12/6) sound musical..... the OEM version of the HO has more low end balls than the stock version, but not the 'subwoofer' type response of the LF that just doesn't sound good for some tone goals. He also chose a mid driver not just based on 'specs', but also based on what sounds good with a bass guitar... very 'top of the driver' sound while still achieving the advantages of a mid driver design, and finally, a bit of sculpting to my ear above the crossover point to take any hint of 'clinical' out of that mid driver (as you post).

Kind of like the 'other end of a very good spectrum' from the Thunderchild. Both are designed and tweaked to sound great with a bass guitar, one (Thunderchild) takes a 'lets design a studio monitor type speaker that can be used in loud, live settings', and the other (ML112) 'lets design a bass cab that still sounds like a good bass cab, but that performs at a much higher level in a small box'.

[Chef]

Yes, they are 3012HO variants, not 3012LF variants.
As such, their frequency response is much higher than an LF driver, and, very much like a "typical" paper cone driver.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Chef

Yes, they are 3012HO variants, not 3012LF variants.
As such, their frequency response is much higher than an LF driver, and, very much like a "typical" paper cone driver.

+1.... Duke basically move the stock LF driver to be tuned a bit higher, kind of moving it closer to the HO, and from what I understand, Roger lowered the tuning of the stock HO a touch, moving it a bit closer to the LF in the low end.

I believe both the TC112 and the ML112 are crossed over in the 1K range. The primary difference is that Duke's top end is sculpted to remain TOTALLY clean at all times, and Roger chose his mid driver and tuned the crossover to allow some natural 'top of the cone' like break-up from the mid driver.

Both are great for what they are.

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by Chef

Yes, they are 3012HO variants, not 3012LF variants.
As such, their frequency response is much higher than an LF driver, and, very much like a "typical" paper cone driver.

Thanks, Chef. I thought that was correct. A stack of these cabs would be the way I would go if I did'nt already have my HO cabs.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by Chef

...The mid driver delivers nice, easy top end; and; does nicely musical things to the Walkabout's grit/OD....

Very much what these cabs were designed to do. I wanted an upper midrange response that would make the most of the Valkyrie's tube section. We actually started out with a Celestion mid in these cabs for a while, which I liked for its very smooth response, but the current mid driver has some peaks and dips that seem to bring out the tube overtones and harmonics is a really cool way. IMO, overdriven tones sound punchier and have a slightly more organic nature to them, compared to a tweeter, which I've never really cared for with tube distortion.

Originally Posted by Chef

...The Sadowsky MV5JJ (single coils) has plenty of bass, treble, and grit to it.
I ran with VTC shut 20% or so all night, and bass and treble both boosted just a bit.

With these settings, for both amps, I was able to make all tonal adjustments needed very well via simple tweak of right hand placement and attack, and small changes in VTC and pup bias.

This is actually one of the best compliments I can get regarding the cabs. If the cab is able to respond to subtle changes in EQ and technique and translate that to the player on stage, then I feel like we really achieved our goals for this cab.

[Ewo]

Originally Posted by tlvernon

When will Valkerie be available?

Great minds think alike! I was wondering the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm saving up the jingle...