Baer Amplification Part 3

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by chuck3

I've been vacillating between getting two of the 112s and one 212. From Tom's description, I think I'd like the 212 better tone-wise. I realize there are advantages and disadvantages to both in terms of logistics etc.

I might actually prefer the single ML-212 by a tad, as well. But I like the ability to stack the ML-112's both horizontally and vertically, and I like the ability to take just one cab.

Note, I play over the neck pickup almost exclusively, so I have a pretty full tone to start with. If I was primarily a bridge player, I might prefer the ML-212 or ML-115.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by chuck3

I've been vacillating between getting two of the 112s and one 212. From Tom's description, I think I'd like the 212 better tone-wise. I realize there are advantages and disadvantages to both in terms of logistics etc.

Most of the time, the 'single box' version is going to sound a bit bigger than the 2 x 112 version... not a huge difference, but the coupling, etc. can result in a smidge better performance.

With the Baer212 , you also get the advantage of optimal placement of the two mid drivers (one right on top of each other in a vertical array). That also is a relatively minor thing.

So, very minor tonal reasons to go with the 212.

The 212 will be a bit less expensive than two ML112's (just like with other companies who make a 212 version of their 112's). So, again, a bit of an advantage to the 212.

IMO, the biggest issue is how you feel about the schlep between a large relatively lightweight cab versus two smaller cabs, and also if you play enough small gigs where using one would be worth the extra money to go modular.

Tone-wise, minor deal, cost, shlep and 'modularity' would be the drivers of choice, and it should be pretty easy for a potential buyer to answer those questions.

For me, since the footprint is identical (i.e., the amount of space either version takes up on stage), I'd go with the 212 all the way. It is light enough that you could take it to almost any gig, and a single cab on a cart is a think of beauty for easy, quick set-up and ease of schlep on a small cart or with wheels on the bottom of the cab.

[5StringPocket]

I know the Valkyrie is rated down to 2 ohms but can it run a 2 ohm load at robust volume for 3 one hour sets without getting too hot? The components and engineering look very solid but I have to ask because there are other amps rated at 2 ohms which have had issues here.

[Chef]

I imagine making them sound the same is a very small eq away kinda deal.

I've run "two tall" stacks for years now, and I like the better personal monitoring it gives me.
So, 2x112 for me.
And, I use one for smaller things, and rehearsals, a lot.

Originally Posted by KJung

Most of the time, the 'single box' version is going to sound a bit bigger than the 2 x 112 version... not a huge difference, but the coupling, etc. can result in a smidge better performance.

With the Bae212 , you also get the advantage of optimal placement of the two mid drivers (one right on top of each other in a vertical array). That also is a relatively minor thing.

So, very minor tonal reasons to go with the 212.

The 212 will be a bit less expensive than two ML112's (just like with other companies who make a 212 version of their 112's). So, again, a bit of an advantage to the 212.

IMO, the biggest issue is how you feel about the schlep between on large relatively lightweight cab versus two smaller cabs, and also if you play enough small gigs where using one would be worth the extra money to go modular.

Tone-wise, minor deal, cost, shlep and 'modularity' would be the drivers of choice, and it should be pretty easy for a potential buyer to answer those questions.

For me, since the footprint is identical (i.e., the amount of space either version takes up on stage), I'd go with the 212 all the way. It is light enough that you could take it to almost any gig, and a single cab on a cart is a think of beauty for easy, quick set-up and ease of schlep on a small cart or with wheels on the bottom of the cab.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by KJung

For me, since the footprint is identical (i.e., the amount of space either version takes up on stage), I'd go with the 212 all the way.

Keep in mind, this is only the case if you stack them horizontally. Since I use my almost exclusively in the vertical stack configuration, I get a smaller footprint out of the two ML-112's.

But yes, there are plenty of reasons to go with the single box solution. It's a good call either way, IMHO.

And for folks who don't like the upper mid aggression, and/or want a thicker, chewier low end, the ML-115 is da bomb.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by 5StringPocket

I know the Valkyrie is rated down to 2 ohms but can it run a 2 ohm load at robust volume for 3 one hour sets without getting too hot? The components and engineering look very solid but I have to ask because there are other amps rated at 2 ohms which have had issues here.

Knowing Roger and how punishingly thorough he has been with these amps and cabs, if he says it's rated for 2 ohms, then I have no doubt that you can gig it all night at 2 ohms with no problems.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by 5StringPocket

I know the Valkyrie is rated down to 2 ohms but can it run a 2 ohm load at robust volume for 3 one hour sets without getting too hot? The components and engineering look very solid but I have to ask because there are other amps rated at 2 ohms which have had issues here.

Now that we have the final prototype done, we will be doing a lot of testing on this. One of our engineer's main specialties is in designing very expensive, very high powered amplifiers for use in the pro audio market. His designs are used a lot in night clubs, where the amps run at high volumes for many hours at a time, pretty much 365 days a year. In other words, he has a lot of experience designing power amps and has a tendency to overbuild the heck out of anything. We've designed the amp using 8 very high quality output devices and we use a massive heatsink and an all aluminum chassis to help keep things cool. We also designed the airflow in the unit so that the cool air from the front passes directly over the Plitron toroidal transformer before exiting the amp though the heatsink.

[Chef]

Dear Roger:
Send me two more ML 112's, and, a Valkyrie, and I will totally punish them at 2 ohms.

Sincerely;
The Armored Diller Master.

[CTC564]

Originally Posted by Chef

Dear Roger:
Send me two more ML 112's, and, a Valkyrie, and I will totally punish them at 2 ohms.

Sincerely;
The Armored Diller Master.

LOL...EXACTLY what I was thinking

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by Chef

Dear Roger:
Send me two more ML 112's, and, a Valkyrie, and I will totally punish them at 2 ohms.

Sincerely;
The Armored Diller Master.

Lol,
I need to thoroughly test the valkyrie at 240 volts for you Roger, I won't charge you any consultancy fees as long as I can keep it afterwards

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by KJung

IMO, the biggest issue is how you feel about the schlep between on large relatively lightweight cab versus two smaller cabs, and also if you play enough small gigs where using one would be worth the extra money to go modular.

fwiw last night I had rehearsal with a 10-piece band. We are using a temp space where we have to keep volume reasonable. I brought one cab (up a flight of stairs) and it was perfect with the Puma. I was actually a bit shocked at how well it worked in the room - plenty of low end support and I could hear what I was doing. It really carried the rhythm section. A 212 would have been total overkill and wouldn't have provided any advantage. At the gig I'll bring both ML112s and vertically stack them as we'll be a lot louder and I'll have limited FOH support.

And I again had bandmates commenting (unprompted) that the rig sounded really good. I've gotten more of those running the ML112 than any previous cab.

If I was always playing louder I could see the ML212. Since I do a lot of jazz gigs in places like wine bars and yacht clubs, going modular makes way more sense. If I was doing primarily louder rock clubs or large dance gigs, then a 212 would probably be the choice, though my back really likes a sub-40 lb cab. For festivals it usually doesn't matter as I'm primarily in FOH and whatever I bring is mostly for looks.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by nostatic

fwiw last night I had rehearsal with a 10-piece band. We are using a temp space where we have to keep volume reasonable. I brought one cab (up a flight of stairs) and it was perfect with the Puma. I was actually a bit shocked at how well it worked in the room - plenty of low end support and I could hear what I was doing. It really carried the rhythm section. A 212 would have been total overkill and wouldn't have provided any advantage. At the gig I'll bring both ML112s and vertically stack them as we'll be a lot louder and I'll have limited FOH support.

And I again had bandmates commenting (unprompted) that the rig sounded really good. I've gotten more of those running the ML112 than any previous cab.

If I was always playing louder I could see the ML212. Since I do a lot of jazz gigs in places like wine bars and yacht clubs, going modular makes way more sense. If I was doing primarily louder rock clubs or large dance gigs, then a 212 would probably be the choice, though my back really likes a sub-40 lb cab. For festivals it usually doesn't matter as I'm primarily in FOH and whatever I bring is mostly for looks.

+1 Interestingly, since I'm not really on a budget, I do the modular thing by buying a large and small. So, I have the Bergantino equivalent of a ML112 and an ML212... so I'm always in a single cab situation.

Lots of ways to skin this cat. I do like the mid driver configuration in that 'top of the cab linear array' of the ML212 though. That must really be nice for near field monitoring, and it looks great also.

I currently have a Berg AE212/AE210 for large and small, and a Thunderchild TC115/TC112 for large and small. That is working pretty nicely!

[nostatic]

Part of my problem is I'm lazy. I leave one of the ML112 cabs in the back of my car all the time. So for most gigs I don't have to carry it from the house to the car. When I'm playing a larger room I just take the second one out of the home studio and toss it in the back seat. If I was in a situation where I couldn't leave things in the car, then one small, one large would make perfect sense.

I do have a TC212 comp and Big E 4x6 coming just for grins so that routine may change, but I'm finding that less schlep wins over minor tone gains. Such is getting older

[gillento]

Just ordered my 2nd ML112 at Bassdirect in the UK!

[Spfairchild]

nostatic,

What kind of band is the 10 piece? I play in an 11 piece salsa band, with a ton of horn and percussionists as you can imagine, and ironically almost everyone is mic'd or gets PA support except for me. I've had a hard time keeping up with my SWR GoLight 410 (4 ohms) and all the wattage it can take, being loud enough while still being bassy enough. The lows seem to compress completely away at high volumes, i get fartiness, and have a very inappropriate (for that music) mid-focused sound. I need something that can be loud and be super bassy. Not quite subwoofer like, but to have true lows at high volume. That's why I've been curious about fEARfuls. But I did get to play Roger's ML212 at the show, and it intrigued me - I just couldn't turn it up loud enough to see if it would fit the bill.. Thoughts, anyone? Looking for very loud potential, with the capability of being pretty low-heavy (not just low mids), single cab. Does an ML212 fit this bill? I actually kinda liked not having a tweeter when I played the 212, and that's something I always thought I'd miss!

[nostatic]

This is a Steely Dan tribute band - bass, drums, keys, 2 guitars, 2 saxes, 3 vocals. Sound depends on the gig. At the club we're playing tomorrow sometimes I don't even end up giving FOH a feed as it is mostly sax and vox with some keys and kick for good measure. For other places everyone is mic'd and I give a DI feed off my head (either Monique preamp or Puma head). I play in four other bands that are smaller lineups, ranging from zero PA (instrumental jazz) to only vox/sax in FOH, to my amp only being stage monitor.

I've been able to carry most gigs with just a single ML112, so an ML212 with a good head should cover most any gig. But if you want deep lows, you'll need a head with some headroom if you're getting loud.

fwiw, I am not a fEARful fan. I will admit that I haven't heard many, but the couple I did weren't really my thing. But some guys love them. I find the Baer has a much nicer mid sound and I can get plenty of low if I want.

[Spfairchild]

Good to know. Thanks! I've yet to play through a fEARful at those kinds of volumes, myself. I wish it were easier to try out more of the boutique cabs out there, and in real world situations! (I do know that Baer does a 10 day trial, but still in research phase).

Anyone else an owner of an ML-212 and would like to weigh in here? I'm driving my cab with a Genz ShuttleMAX 9.2, and in general am not a huge fan of the currently-popular-with-virtuosos, mostly-mids heavy, bridge pickup-favored tone - I certainly like an aggressive tone with some high end definition and at least the ability to get low when I want to

[GRoberts]

Originally Posted by Spfairchild

nostatic,

What kind of band is the 10 piece? I play in an 11 piece salsa band, with a ton of horn and percussionists as you can imagine, and ironically almost everyone is mic'd or gets PA support except for me. I've had a hard time keeping up with my SWR GoLight 410 (4 ohms) and all the wattage it can take, being loud enough while still being bassy enough. The lows seem to compress completely away at high volumes, i get fartiness, and have a very inappropriate (for that music) mid-focused sound. I need something that can be loud and be super bassy. Not quite subwoofer like, but to have true lows at high volume. That's why I've been curious about fEARfuls. But I did get to play Roger's ML212 at the show, and it intrigued me - I just couldn't turn it up loud enough to see if it would fit the bill.. Thoughts, anyone? Looking for very loud potential, with the capability of being pretty low-heavy (not just low mids), single cab. Does an ML212 fit this bill? I actually kinda liked not having a tweeter when I played the 212, and that's something I always thought I'd miss!

I can't answer your question, but I am not a fan of the SWR golight cabs at all. My Bergantino AE410 however has never met a gig large, or dense music mix where it didn't work great. So I would fully expect the Baer to surpass your GoLight cab. Just an educated guess.

[chuck3]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

Keep in mind, this is only the case if you stack them horizontally. Since I use my almost exclusively in the vertical stack configuration, I get a smaller footprint out of the two ML-112's.

I guess the answer is obvious (since you do it), but I gotta ask - the vertical stack configuration is highly stable? That would be my only reservation about it. Obviously other than that it's got good advantages.

A lot of love for the 2 x 112 setup so now I am waffling back in that direction ...

seriously, thanks to all for the comments. Everybody on this thread seems pretty cool and helpful, and I enjoy reading about the gigs everyone does.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by chuck3

I guess the answer is obvious (since you do it), but I gotta ask - the vertical stack configuration is highly stable?

IME, absolutely.