Bag End subs... need an amp

K2000 · #1 07-03-2011, 04:04 PM

I've got a pair of S18-E subwoofers with the ELF-M2 processor. They are 8 ohms each, rated at 400 watts... 'peak' wattage and 'program' both rated 400 watts.

I've been driving them with both cabs in one channel of a Carvin amp that yields 600 watts @ 4 ohms (highs and mids in the other channel), and I want more volume... without blowing a speaker. The Carvin clip lights would come on much more often than the ELF clip lights.

Will upgrading to a new amp and driving each cab in it's own 400 watt channel make a clearly noticeable improvement, or will it only be a small incremental increase in volume?

Also, a lot of the newer amps have built-in Limiter capability. Would it be a good idea to buy an amp with a Limiter? Even though the ELF is doing some processing, the amp/limiter would be the last thing the signal sees, before reaching the speakers. Good idea? (I may not understand the proper role of a Limiter). I use a lot of oscillators through this setup, so plenty of sub-bass frequencies in play. Bag End tells you to watch the ELF clip lights, but in performance, the amp is behind me... so it's difficult.

How many watts should I be shopping for? I'm not very tech-savvy... should I get a 400 watt per side amp, and run it full throttle, or get a more powerful amp and keep the dials below full throttle?

Limiter: yes/no? What voltage should I set the Limiter for? I'm terrible at math, so all help with calculations are appreciated.

I emailed this question to Bag End tech support and got no reply... twice. I will try calling them next week, but in the meantime I'd like to ask you guys.

raytsmith · #2 07-03-2011, 08:24 PM

You need to check the specs and see what the ELF subs handle as far as frequency.
Most subs are only designed for 125 Hz and lower, and need other speakers to handle the higher frequencies.
They will never sound good (or particularly loud) for bass by themselves unless you have some speakers to handle the frequencies above what your subs can do.

raytsmith · #3 07-03-2011, 08:28 PM

Well, never mind, I just saw where you said highs and mids on the other channel... I guess you have other bass cabs on that channel...

K2000 · #4 07-04-2011, 12:21 AM

(Mids/Highs: The other channel on the Carvin amp is running a Bill Ftzmaurice Omni 212, with an internal crossover for the tweeters).

Can I/should I go above 400 watts per cab on the Bag End subs?

What about driving them with an amp with a built-in Limiter?

bassman10096 · #5 07-04-2011, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Will upgrading to a new amp and driving each cab in it's own 400 watt channel make a clearly noticeable improvement, or will it only be a small incremental increase in volume?

I've used one or both of a pair of S18-Es in my bass rig and occasionally in my PA over the years. They deliver the best ultra lows you can get anywhere - bar none. But the ELF/INFRA series is not ideally suited to chest-thumping volume (they're sort of a lover - not a fighter). Bag End's techs will be glad to discuss this if you call them (the most helpful techs in the whole industry - don't be concerned about your lack of "tech savy" - they will help you understand).
All that said, you will get the best volume and performance out of your ELFs with more power than you are using. They begin to get really happy at about 500w per cab - so two channels at 500w (8ohms each), one channel at 1000 (4 ohms) will get you into the right range. You will probably lose the clip signals once you power up more.

Quote:

You need to check the specs and see what the ELF subs handle as far as frequency. Most subs are only designed for 125 Hz and lower, and need other speakers to handle the higher frequencies.

ELFs are specifically designed so the integrator crosses everything from 125hz downward (and nothing above) into the subs.

staindbass · #6 07-04-2011, 06:30 AM

i think you should get a more powerfull amp and run it low as you had guessed. i will guess the carvin is straining. the 400w percab as you suggested getting will make some difference, but im not sure how much. carvin is nice but i dont think it is on the quality level of the bagends. i would recommend crown macro techs. i would rent an amp first from a local sound company before buying, to be sure its enough power. at the price level, you want to be sure your getting what you need.

K2000 · #7 07-10-2011, 12:56 AM

Bumping this with an update, for future reference...

I spoke with Bag End tech support on the phone (recommended... call them). They said that the speakers in newer Sub cabs (anything less than about 10 years old) are pretty robust, and wattage handling ratings are conservative. So for the 400 watt S18E cabs, he said that a 500 watt amp would be a good choice (he said you can't go way overboard on wattage, like you might with a ported cab).

He also said a Limiter would be okay, as a 'last line of defense' to make a system fool proof... not recommending that a Limiter be used for 'musical' limiting, but just to prevent mistakes and accidents. It's not necessary, but he knows that some club systems use them (maybe to guard against overzealous DJs? Just a wild guess). So while he didn't necessarily recommend it, he didn't rule it out either.

As far as the ELF M2 integrator, he cleared a lot of things up for me (the ELF manual is terrible if you want practical info). Gain on the ELF processor just functions as another gain stage, in order to avoid clipping your amp, or to bring the gain up if needed. It's not related to the ELF process. For the ELF "concealment", the higher you turn the dial up, the more 'wide open' the concealment circuit is (less concealment, better low end extension). Turning the dial down will give you less response in the very lowest frequencies, but can result in more volume in the frequencies you do allow (the eternal balance between loud vs. low). When the red lights flash on the ELF processor, that doesn't mean it's clipping, that just means it's active.

I am paraphrasing Bag End tech support, based on my recollection of our conversation - I don't want to portray my comments as 'coming directly from Bag End' -- this is my interpretation of what I remember.

Hopefully this will help somebody in future searches, because online info on running the ELF system is somewhat scarce.

Muziekschuur · #8 04-19-2012, 05:06 AM

I use Bagend cabs in a P.A. I use Phonic amps. They sound amazing in my system. I use 2000 watt amps (1000 watt a side) on 2x TA5000 and 2x 18 inches.

billfitzmaurice · #9 04-19-2012, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2000

(Mids/Highs: The other channel on the Carvin amp is running a Bill Ftzmaurice Omni 212, with an internal crossover for the tweeters).

Can I/should I go above 400 watts per cab on the Bag End subs?

You shouldn't need to. For that matter if you have a Omni 212 you shouldn't need subs, it's a stand alone cab. Put the subs on the PA where they belong. You'd only use subs along with an OmniTop 212. And if that's what you have the Bag Ends don't have the sensitivity required to keep up, no matter how much power you have.