Barefaced Super Twelve: how different would it sound to a "normal" cab?

[ishouldbeking]

Title of thread basically sums up my question. I don't have a ton of experience with cabs, but all I read and hear about these modern, lightweight cabs sounds fantastic. I'm particularly interested in the Barefaced Super Twelve, as it's described as a 4x10 killer. (EDIT: by killer, I guess I mean "able to hang with 410's" rather than, say, able to crush them into dust.)

But I wonder, will one of these cabs sound completely alien to someone like me, who's only used to playing through traditional rock type cabs? I've played through a slew of 4x10's... some sounded decent (GK 410RBH), others not so much (older Ampeg 410)... but all were pretty obnoxious to schlep around. I tend to roll off tweeters, and use something of a traditional SVT-ish type of tone... whenever I get the chance to play through an 810 fridge, I'm tonally happy. I just don't have a concept of whether these types of awesome-looking-in-theory cabs like Barefaced and Audiokinesis could also do the traditional thing (at least to some extent), albeit in a smaller, lighter, better built package.

[rpsands]

The Super Twelve if it's anything like my single 12 with a 3012HO in it will be voiced very much like a typical rock cabinet. Not a ton of bottom but a ton of lower mids and a rising midrange response. I would get the T model myself if I had the choice, as I didn't find the 3012HO had enough going on on top for me quite.

My cab about as loud as a Schroeder per watt with a lot more available bass boost.

Just my two pence here. You might find you want to use some eq on the upper midrange as it gets pretty aggressive, but if you're willing to do that, you'll dig it.

The difference between the SVT and the Super Twelve is probably going to be a matter of speaker distortion. Since you use a VT bass, I would not worry at all about that. It should sound fantastic through the Super Twelve.

If you buy it and don't like it you can come sort through my cab collection and take what you want in exchange I am not joking, pretty much pick any two or maybe three cabs you want.

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by rpsands

The Super Twelve if it's anything like my single 12 with a 3012HO in it will be voiced very much like a typical rock cabinet. Not a ton of bottom but a ton of lower mids and a rising midrange response. I would get the T model myself if I had the choice, as I didn't find the 3012HO had enough going on on top for me quite.

My cab about as loud as a Schroeder per watt with a lot more available bass boost.

Just my two pence here. You might find you want to use some eq on the upper midrange as it gets pretty aggressive, but if you're willing to do that, you'll dig it.

The difference between the SVT and the Super Twelve is probably going to be a matter of speaker distortion. Since you use a VT bass, I would not worry at all about that. It should sound fantastic through the Super Twelve.

If you buy it and don't like it you can come sort through my cab collection and take what you want in exchange I am not joking, pretty much pick any two or maybe three cabs you want.

I was hoping you'd respond, RP! And from the way you describe it, that sounds right up my alley. Re: the tweeter... in the past I've always rolled them off, but I've never played through a really nice tweeter. With my old GK 410rbh, anything approximating overdrive or distortion sounded like absolute crap with the horn on, so I kept it rolled off. I typically go for that grindy SVT type of tone as my "clean" sound, and I do kick in my Bass Big Muff and Sparkle Drive pedals for lead parts of certain songs. I've got a pavlovian fear of tweeters due to past experience, it seems.

And, a follow-up tweeter question... in terms of the differences between the T and non-T versions of the Super Twelve: would the non-tweetered cab have the same treble cut-off point as the T version with the tweeter rolled off? Or would the crossover on the T cut off the highs at a lower point than the non-tweetered cab running in full range? Or am I overthinking that?

[rpsands]

Alex would have to tell you about the crossover as he doesn't have enough info posted about it for me to make any valuable comments about it. Knowing what I know about Alex I would guess that it's a full crossover and probably on the lower side of what you would expect, and severely overspecced and thought out.

You're not overthinking it though, it's a valid question. Alex is the only one who can answer it though unfortunately.

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Alex would have to tell you about the crossover as he doesn't have enough info posted about it for me to make any valuable comments about it. Knowing what I know about Alex I would guess that it's a full crossover and probably on the lower side of what you would expect, and severely overspecced and thought out.

You're not overthinking it though, it's a valid question. Alex is the only one who can answer it though unfortunately.

Ah, I'll email him then. He's been kind enough to respond to one of my lengthy emails already.

[dug dog]

I'd like to hear what he has to say. I'm very curious about what kind of tweeter he's using.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpsands

The Super Twelve if it's anything like my single 12 with a 3012HO in it will be voiced very much like a typical rock cabinet. Not a ton of bottom but a ton of lower mids and a rising midrange response. I would get the T model myself if I had the choice, as I didn't find the 3012HO had enough going on on top for me quite.

My cab about as loud as a Schroeder per watt with a lot more available bass boost.

Just my two pence here. You might find you want to use some eq on the upper midrange as it gets pretty aggressive, but if you're willing to do that, you'll dig it.

I've actually been a bit surprised with the dual 3012HO cabs I've played. As you say, really mid present, super grindy up top in the upper mids... quite similar to the Celestion tone in the Schroeders. The 15" version sounded much better to me with minimal EQ.

I guess the big difference is these speakers have the specs, xmax, and all that stuff to be able to handle some bass boost (and as you say, if your head as an upper mid control somewhere in that 1K area, it is easy to dial out the grind and brightness a bit). Surprising when you first play out of these 3012 non LF cabs though... not what I would have thought, given the fat, punchy, snarly 15HO tone, and the HUGE low end of the 31012LF cabs (which have those mid drivers, so a bit different thing).

Never played the Barefaced version though, but I would guess it is similar.

Per your point, a little softening at 1K or so, and a bit of boost with a standard shelving bass control, and they sound quite good and get quite loud!

K

[Chef]

410 killer?
I doubt that, seriously.

210 killer, no doubt, and a nice strong cab for it's size, I'm sure.

I've spent some time with similar designs, but, not that exact one.

[51m0n]

Well I spent an evening with this cab, and a BigOne up against my Berg ae410, a friend of mine is desperately looking for the right rig for her right now....

You can hear some recordings and read more here

Is it a 410 killer?

No, but it keeps up as far as we could push it. We got very VERY loud indeed!

Easily over the top of a hard hitting drummer.

Its a fantastic cab IMO, not the same voicing as the ae410 (which is a little fatter/deeper with no eq to my ears), but really really takes eq nicely.

Highly recommended.

[Musicman20]

I wouldnt even want to strain a 1x12 to 4x10 volumes.

Id suggest a high end 2x12.

Suggestions: Berg AE212, Aguilar DB212.

[naturalkinds]

Originally Posted by Musicman20

I wouldnt even want to strain a 1x12 to 4x10 volumes.

Id suggest a high end 2x12.

Suggestions: Berg AE212, Aguilar DB212.

Uh, the Super Twelve is a 212. And the Super Twelve is high-end.

[rpsands]

KJ, please remember that the speakers in the 3012HO still have displacement limits around 3 times that of deltalites typically used in bass cabs, and thermal limits about twice that much.

The super twelve will hang with any 4x10 on the market in max volume and you can take that to the bank.

I don't know the specs of the AE212, but I would expect the 3012HO to have an edge in sensitivity and a slight edge in power handling to the berg drivers, but probably not sound quite as refined for bass guitar. I'd guess that Bergantino adjusts the specs of his drivers to provide a natural tone that people are more likely to find appealing right out of the box. That's hard to say for sure, but it's pretty common. The Deltalite mod used by Genz sounds a lot better to me than the stock one, for example. This is pre-eq of course and bearing in mind that "tone" is a relative thing.

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by 51m0n

Well I spent an evening with this cab, and a BigOne up against my Berg ae410, a friend of mine is desperately looking for the right rig for her right now....

You can hear some recordings and read more here

Is it a 410 killer?

No, but it keeps up as far as we could push it. We got very VERY loud indeed!

Easily over the top of a hard hitting drummer.

Its a fantastic cab IMO, not the same voicing as the ae410 (which is a little fatter/deeper with no eq to my ears), but really really takes eq nicely.

Highly recommended.

I like the 'real-world' test you guys put it through. Heard in the context of an actual band (and the kind of band I'd be more likely to play alongside than what I usually hear in demo clips) made it a lot more useful for me.

While the fuzz makes it hard to detect the actual character of each cab, the fact that both of those rigs could easily get into that tonal space actually answered a lot of questions. I think the AE410 came off a bit more refined, and the Super Twelve was a lot more in-your-face, but both sounded good. Thanks for sharing that.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpsands

KJ, please remember that the speakers in the 3012HO still have displacement limits around 3 times that of deltalites typically used in bass cabs, and thermal limits about twice that much.

The super twelve will hang with any 4x10 on the market in max volume and you can take that to the bank.

I don't know the specs of the AE212, but I would expect the 3012HO to have an edge in sensitivity and a slight edge in power handling to the berg drivers, but probably not sound quite as refined for bass guitar. I'd guess that Bergantino adjusts the specs of his drivers to provide a natural tone that people are more likely to find appealing right out of the box. That's hard to say for sure, but it's pretty common. The Deltalite mod used by Genz sounds a lot better to me than the stock one, for example. This is pre-eq of course and bearing in mind that "tone" is a relative thing.

+1 They are nice speakers, and superior to most production cabs (not the Berg drivers from my experience). The 212 cabs with the non LF 112's weren't even in the same universe as the three way 31012LF's with mid driver and tweeter.

While I liked the tone of the regular 2 way cab with the non LF drivers, it was, IMO 'just another very good 212.. nothing super about it. yes, you could dial in more low end than with an Avatar, but not any more than my AE410 or Epi410UL.

IMO and IME... nice, but not 'super' compared to a number of 'production 212's or production 410's.

To be clear, I have not hear the Barefaced version.... only commenting of 4 or 5 LDS 212's and 112's with these drivers, with and without tweeters. Not my thing.

[thudfromafar]

KJung when you test the LDS cabs, one thing to take into consideration is that these woofers tend to get a lot louder/deeper when you "break them in" and put them thru 10-20 hours of playtime. When I first got my LDS 15/6 I was surprised that I felt like adding bass boost even if the woofer would supposedly take a lot more of it than a normal cab. But as it is now, I run flat to maybe 2db bass boost and it's quite a bit louder and deeper than when I got it. I know a lot of people have reported the same thing, at least with the LF woofers.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by thudfromafar

KJung when you test the LDS cabs, one thing to take into consideration is that these woofers tend to get a lot louder/deeper when you "break them in" and put them thru 10-20 hours of playtime. When I first got my LDS 15/6 I was surprised that I felt like adding bass boost even if the woofer would supposedly take a lot more of it than a normal cab. But as it is now, I run flat to maybe 2db bass boost and it's quite a bit louder and deeper than when I got it. I know a lot of people have reported the same thing, at least with the LF woofers.

+1 My Thunderchild opened up a bit after a couple of hours.

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by KJung

...IMO and IME... nice, but not 'super' compared to a number of 'production 212's or production 410's.

Seems like the largest differentiating factor then would be size and weight, no? The Super Twelve is a little bit smaller and about 13 lbs lighter than the comparable Berg cab, I believe. Not sure if that's a big enough weight difference to make it worth the extra cost here in the states, but to some folks I suspect it might be.

[rpsands]

It's also worth noting that it's extremely probable that Don's 3012HO build is just not as good. Some of his builds of the design have had not enough port area or too much internal volume or both. The 3012HO really shines in a small box with a relatively high tuning, and Don has a tendency to err toward the side of very low tuning for bass (40-45hz territory) when this driver gains a lot from a higher tuning in the 50-55hz range.

Anyway, not to pick on Don's designs, just saying that the box size and tuning can make a huge difference and Don has not put as much design effort into the form factor as Alex has. The difference could be very large - small ports could halve your effective power handling by introducing noise at high volumes, and low tuning could sacrifice as much as 3db in the lower regions.

The 3012Ho wants about 16-20 square inches of port area PER DRIVER to reach max excursion without port turbulence. That means 32-40 square inches. Big limiter.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by ishouldbeking

Seems like the largest differentiating factor then would be size and weight, no? The Super Twelve is a little bit smaller and about 13 lbs lighter than the comparable Berg cab, I believe. Not sure if that's a big enough weight difference to make it worth the extra cost here in the states, but to some folks I suspect it might be.

I have no idea what speakers the AE212 uses (other than I'm pretty sure they are from Eminence).

Again, I can't comment on Alex's 1212, only other somewhat similar cabs with the stock 3012 drivers that I've played.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpsands

It's also worth noting that it's extremely probable that Don's 3012HO build is just not as good. Some of his builds of the design have had not enough port area or too much internal volume or both. The 3012HO really shines in a small box with a relatively high tuning, and Don has a tendency to err toward the side of very low tuning for bass (40-45hz territory) when this driver gains a lot from a higher tuning in the 50-55hz range.

Anyway, not to pick on Don's designs, just saying that the box size and tuning can make a huge difference and Don has not put as much design effort into the form factor as Alex has. The difference could be very large - small ports could halve your effective power handling by introducing noise at high volumes, and low tuning could sacrifice as much as 3db in the lower regions.

+1 Each of Don's cabs sound a bit different, even with similar spec's, and he varies tunings, port designs, etc. based on customer requests or his own ideas when the customer doesn't specify things exactly.

It would not surprise me at all if Alex's 'fixed' design box is about as good as you could get with these drivers, given the care and testing that went into his design.