Basic info: Wattage to compete with a drummer?

Pure.Fusion · #1 12-14-2010, 02:00 AM

Hi all,

I'm new to bass playing, but coming from being a guitar player so it's not totally foreign but (I'm sure you know) it 'aint the same.

About the gear, I've been asking shop staff what I need in a bass rig to comfortably sit with a drummer in a practice studio. This is the most likely scenario for a while.

I know that, like a guitar cab, you don't want to be pushing your amp to 90% to achieve the desired volume. This wouldn't be the quality sound we *all* want. You want head room, right?

I'm being told that 500W into 4ohms (350W into 8ohms) in a 4x10" will do the job no problems.

Is this the way you see it?

Perhaps I can get away with a cheaper 250W amp?
Maybe I have to be aiming for 800W?

What's the go?

Cheers,
FM

spaz21387 · #2 12-14-2010, 02:04 AM

Actually if you are just playing with a drummer you will be fine with a smaller 50 watt practice amp. But if you throw a guitarist into the mix you want to have 4 times the power the guitarist is using. Example the guitarist is using a 100 watt marshall amp. You will need something that puts out 400 watts if its solidstate. If its tube powered it seems to be alot louder.

sleepytime · #3 12-14-2010, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure.Fusion

I'm being told that 500W into 4ohms (350W into 8ohms) in a 4x10" will do the job no problems.

Yeah, that oughta do it.

JulienJeff · #4 12-14-2010, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepytime

Yeah, that oughta do it.

+1

Pure.Fusion · #5 12-14-2010, 02:28 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

Yep, I meant a drummer and others, be it guitar & keys, or what ever.

I remember playing in a band a loooong time ago. I figured that a drummer is going to be the limiting factor - ie, he's gotta hit the skins hard enough to get a nice natural sound out of his equipment and you can't expect him to hit them any softer. Guitar and bass volumes then are adjusted for a mix, yeah?

Excuse the question spaz21387, you mean 400W into 8 Ohms? (I'm still f*&c?ed by the cabinet impedance thing).

"Yeah, that oughta do it." - Thanks Sleepytime, but I'm trying to nut this out and buy once and once only. It's all gets too expensive when you buy the wrong thing up front and you have to switch over etc.

Cheers,
FM

sonic assassin · #6 12-14-2010, 02:40 AM

i had a 350 watt combo for years and i could have blown them all out on volume. i never got it past 3.

but low frequencies apparently eat up your power, so if you want a lot of clean lows, you need more power. somewhere in the realm of 300-500 should cover it.

spaz21387 · #7 12-14-2010, 03:01 AM

Well usually you want to run your bass head at 4 ohms but it also depends on the ohm rating of the head. but 75% of bass heads are 4 ohms. say you have 8 ohm cabs running them togather will split the voltage into each cab but they will be running at full power.Also you have to be careful a pairing an 8ohm cab with a 4 ohm cab that could cause lots of problems.

bmc · #8 12-14-2010, 03:52 AM

You don't need 350 watts. Unless the objective is to play as loud as you can.

100 watts in a studio is more than enough. More than enough.

Keep in mind that the job of sales staff in stores is to push product.

Devo-lution · #9 12-14-2010, 04:08 AM

watts are subjective thingies. They state the amount of power used, not the exact amount of volume. Some 500 watt amps are louder than others etc... A lot also depends on your sound. If you are aiming for a bright, punchy sound with a lot of definition, you might suffice with 200 watt.

If you want earthquaking lows to dominate your sound, however, you might even need as much as 1000 watts.

Other factor into play. The musicians you play with (how loud is your drummer, guitar EQ? Synth players tend to take a lot of space in a mix,...)

And yet another, even more important factor: Cab size an efficiëncy.

Pure.Fusion · #10 12-14-2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmc

You don't need 350 watts. Unless the objective is to play as loud as you can.

100 watts in a studio is more than enough. More than enough.

Keep in mind that the job of sales staff in stores is to push product.

Very interesting you say that. I felt a bit like I was herded towards the Markbass stuff. But having said that, I did trust my own (half deaf yet experienced) ears and did happen to like Markbass the best.

Does this store make the biggest profit selling *that* particular brand? I dunno. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Markbass seems to be the latest big thing, but It's got the goods to match their reputation. Yeah?

Anyway, my criteria to the guy was clean quality sound that will compete with a drummer (and band) in a rehearsal studio.

Even the feedback I got in this thread has suggested that I don't need so much power for that. It's actually welcoming info since the Markbass gear at that wattage was about AUD$3000 all up. Big dollars. If we're talking 250-300 watts, the price might be lower.

That's why I put it out there anyway, to see what came back.

Oh, and to say 'hi' at the Talk Bass forum

Cheers,
FM

hrodbert696 · #11 12-14-2010, 04:14 AM

I would say that 350 watts should be overkill in a practice or studio setting, though not at a gig. I have a combo amp that puts 220 watts into a 1x15 speaker and if I turn the master volume above 2 it's too loud for practice with the drummer and band.

The rule of thumb I always heard is that the bassist needs double the watts a guitarist would because the longer soundwaves of low notes don't penetrate as well, so you could ask how powerful of an amp you would want as a guitarist for this situation and double that.

Devo-lution · #12 12-14-2010, 04:15 AM

Depends on the sound you're after. If you like things clean and even, the LMII is a nice amp.

If you like it clean and somewhat more punchy, the F1 would be great, as KJung has stated on a lot of occasions.

Very clean sounding amps...

btw, perfect example. LMII and F1 are both 500 watt amps, but the F1 is quite a bit louder.

Kind regards

hrodbert696 · #13 12-14-2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmc

Keep in mind that the job of sales staff in stores is to push product.

Yeah, when I first joined a band and needed an amp to begin playing with them the sales guys at my music store kept pushing me to buy all this Eden stuff. It was far beyond anything I needed at the time, would have cost me quadruple what I wound up spending.

bmc · #14 12-14-2010, 04:51 AM

Try to not look at it as competing with a drummer. We have all played with loud drummers and loud guitarists, but they should not be the ones driving our purchase decisions.

I regularly gig with 100 watt 1-12 combo in a small local pub playing classic rock. I regularly leave my Markbass F-1 at home. Over kill.

I played a gig last year with a loud drummer, keyboard player, two guitarists with that 100 watt combo. It was fine.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with having excess available power. Good to have. But for the description of need, the only reason I would nod in approval of 350 watts and a 410 is if you're all 18 years old and want to play rock star. We have all been there and I don't say that to put anyone down. I don't.

I gigged with a very loud drummer for five years. He's in Florida now gigging with a pretty snappy bues band. Volume was an issue with him. But it was never a reason for me to grow my gear.

Play quieter and see how much a band sounds. You will also discover that musicians have to pay more attention to what they're playing and how they're playing. Much harder to play quieter and well than it is to play louder and well.

If everyone is loud and ear plugs become a necessity, there's something wrong.

A couple of years back, I met a vocalist who told me her drummer mic'd his kit for rehearsals. I LOL'd. Rock stars.

Given the numbers of players you're facing, reserve power is always nice to have at your finger tips. If your drummer is loud, tell him to learn about dynamics and playing with taste. Louder is not better. To me, it's a sign of poor musicianship. YMMV

In closing, I feel so bad for you guys down under and the outragious prices you face for gear.

Edward G. · #15 12-14-2010, 05:17 AM

Around 200 watts +/- @ 8 ohms is a good starting point. After 300-400 watts @ 4 ohms or so, it's mostly about headroom, not necessarily sheer volume. Cabinet efficiency is a major factor in all of this. Some cabs are waay loud. Use you ears and common sense.

One thing is certain: Playing your amp at the absolute limits of its performance is a sucker play that better players grow out of. Use your ears, not your gonads.

DaZombieWoof · #16 12-14-2010, 05:18 AM

Really depends on total package of amp and speaker setup. What frequency range you are trying to push makes huge difference. Go down an octave and you need to move 4 times as much air. If you brutalize with mids and harmonic contrent you can get stupid loud with proper cabs. People forget Lemmy is running all of 2 100 watt setups. total 8 - 12's and 8 - 15's helps.

Stingray Fan · #17 12-14-2010, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure.Fusion

Hi all,

I'm new to bass playing, but coming from being a guitar player so it's not totally foreign but (I'm sure you know) it 'aint the same.

About the gear, I've been asking shop staff what I need in a bass rig to comfortably sit with a drummer in a practice studio. This is the most likely scenario for a while.

I know that, like a guitar cab, you don't want to be pushing your amp to 90% to achieve the desired volume. This wouldn't be the quality sound we *all* want. You want head room, right?

I'm being told that 500W into 4ohms (350W into 8ohms) in a 4x10" will do the job no problems.

Is this the way you see it?

Perhaps I can get away with a cheaper 250W amp?
Maybe I have to be aiming for 800W?

What's the go?

Cheers,
FM

I say buy the most powerful rig you can afford. You can always keep the volume knob low, and it gives you the flexibility to get louder if necessary - you never know what situation you'll find yourself in in the future.

Edward G. · #18 12-14-2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stingray Fan

I say buy the most powerful rig you can afford. You can always keep the volume knob low, and it gives you the flexibility to get louder if necessary - you never know what situation you'll find yourself in in the future.

Power is the most significant tone-shaping tool of all.

Balog · #19 12-14-2010, 09:49 AM

For cheap, powerful, and versatile nothing beats a PA amp + pre.

Also, do you already have cabs in mind? Size and efficiency of cabs play a significant role in wattage needed for a given SPL (or so is my understanding).

peetey · #20 12-14-2010, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure.Fusion

Thanks for the feedback.

Yep, I meant a drummer and others, be it guitar & keys, or what ever.

Excuse the question spaz21387, you mean 400W into 8 Ohms? (I'm still f*&c?ed by the cabinet impedance thing).

"Yeah, that oughta do it." - Thanks Sleepytime, but I'm trying to nut this out and buy once and once only. It's all gets too expensive when you buy the wrong thing up front and you have to switch over etc.

Cheers,
FM

HA!

btw, 500w @ 4 ohms in a 410 should be adequate for a band setting such as yours, but more is always better.