Bass Amplifier vs. Cabinet/Power Amp/Pre Amp.

TheBasicBassist · #1 07-27-2010, 10:22 PM

Hey all,

I'm in a bit of a situation right now where I'm between amps. My Mesa Boogie Walkabout Scout 12" has been in the repair shop for the past month with improvement upon it's current condition and Mesa's customer service is being EXTREMELY unresponsive. So I'm thinking of dumping the Walkabout (after it's repaired) and selling off a few other pieces to go this route:

Epifani 2x10 Cab
A Crown or QSC Pre Amp that'll run 2-400 watts at 8 ohm
An LA-610 Power Amp

This is a "super amp" put together by a very dear friend of mine for the styles of music that I play (Bebop, Funk, Rock, Jazz, Alt., Musicals, Gospel, ect.) Seeing as how I'm not the most sound person on the electronics side of music and how it's impossible to try out these items together I'd like to know TB's honest opinion. Thanks in advance.

- John

Alex1984 · #2 07-27-2010, 10:44 PM

Crown/QSC makes power amps and LA-610 is the preamp.

Anyhow, it's nice to go modular to be able to mix and match things that you like, but I still seem to like heads/cabs better than a rack rig for being more "contained" and overall, being in a smaller package, not to mention price.

But if you do decide to go this way, can I ask why not choose a more bass-oriented pre-amp?

3506string · #3 07-27-2010, 10:46 PM

Well a pre/power setup is flexible in that changing your tone section is as easy as changing preamps. Usually a pre/power setup will be a bit bulkier than a head depending on which preamp and power amp you choose.

A power amp will be an easy find. I'm not familiar with crown or qsc so I cant recommend one.

As far as the LA-610, I think it might be a little overkill for a bass rig. It also only has 1 xlr output. so there aren't many output options. But if that is what you want it should effectively do the job of a preamp. There are a couple of other channel strips that have a decent rep on tb. Like the art tube and pro channel, the presonus eureka, summit has some, as well as Joe meek, avalon, demeter etc. Its just a task of finding what you would like

Alex1984 · #4 07-28-2010, 12:02 AM

From an engineering perspective, when something is designed with a specific purpose in mind, for the same money, you may be able to get more out of it, or get the same level of features for cheaper. Lots of good preamps out there, Aguilar, MarkBass, BBE, Peavey, Alembic, Demeter, Ampeg SVP's and I think they might get you further along than the LA-610.

Son of Bovril · #5 07-28-2010, 02:35 AM

With the new Micro amps now available it is getting harder and harder to argue for a pre/power setup. The main bonus is being able to swap out your preamp for different tones or use different sized poweramps for different cab combinations...

To be honest though, most preamps are bigger and bulkier that todays full microheads, so unless you really need +1000watts then there really isn't much need for a big poweramp

Bob Lee (QSC) · #6 07-28-2010, 10:20 AM

For convenience and simplicity, you can't beat a combo. OTOH, going with separates gives you versatility. Weigh what's important to you.

If you opt for the pre/amp/cabinet rig, understand that every setup and teardown at every gig and practice will take at least several minutes of your time. But you'll have wide ranges of adjustability in your tone, and you'll also be able to swap out components of the system as you desire. With a combo you can set it down, plug it in, and play, then unplug and take it away at the end. You probably won't have the wide range of adjustability, but you still might get the kinds of tone you want.

TheBasicBassist · #7 07-28-2010, 11:37 AM

Thanks guys for all the responses. This is really, really helping to shed some light on an otherwise difficult (for me) to understand topic. The thing is that, right now, I'm using a Little Mark II head which seems to be working fantastically. The output XLR is fantastic the filters work awesome and the head itself gets really loud. So I don't know what I'd be missing by just choosing a LMII w. a good compressor in front of it into an Epifani/Aguilar cabinet over this complicated mess of a setup. I think that's where my problem is. I don't know how much better my tone COULD be, because right now, I think I like my tone quite a bit.
I know now, though, that a combo is something that I don't want at all. I'd much prefer a 1x12 cab and head w. compressor, preamp, ect. Sorry if I sound like an idiot w. all this, I'm very, very noobish to the whole amplification side of bass playing. Thanks so much, again, everyone.

- John

Whitbass · #8 07-28-2010, 11:57 AM

gonna be hard to beat the Little Mark period.......
it can be done I'm sure.....but all considered, its one of the best heads and best values on the market...............and its respected by folks that know......
again, you can buy better, but not so easily......
MB sounds great, user friendly, and reliable.....

Head vs PA Amp & Pre
unless you go with an expensive Pre + PA Amp, with lots of power, just go with a bass head.......also understand that a Pre + PA Amp is a finicky thing...has to be matched up right or its just not worth it .......

I've heard some killer Pre + PA Amp rigs, but I have also been down that path for a while, then landed at a MB LMII, and its great..........maybe not everyone's, favorite; but one good example....
I'd say pick a good head, Markbass or something you like that is reputable; settle on the cab you like, maybe a good 4x10, or whatever meets your budget and needs, and call it done.....
IMHO....LMII/LMIII + AE410, fairly light, loud, dependable, easy, great tone......
but that's just one of a few great options.........
good luck

..............

TheBasicBassist · #9 07-28-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitbass

gonna be hard to beat the Little Mark period.......
it can be done I'm sure.....but all considered, its one of the best heads and best values on the market...............and its respected by folks that know......
again, you can buy better, but not so easily......
MB sounds great, user friendly, and reliable.....

Head vs PA Amp & Pre
unless you go with an expensive Pre + PA Amp, with lots of power, just go with a bass head.......also understand that a Pre + PA Amp is a finicky thing...has to be matched up right or its just not worth it .......

I've heard some killer Pre + PA Amp rigs, but I have also been down that path for a while, then landed at a MB LMII, and its great..........maybe not everyone's, favorite; but one good example....
I'd say pick a good head, Markbass or something you like that is reputable; settle on the cab you like, maybe a good 4x10, or whatever meets your budget and needs, and call it done.....
IMHO....LMII/LMIII + AE410, fairly light, loud, dependable, easy, great tone......
but that's just one of a few great options.........
good luck

..............

I really like my LMII, it doesn't seem to color my tone that much but I guess that's subjective - maybe it just gives me the tone that I want.

And to get that rock n' roll tone all I'd have to do is throw a VT Bass Pedal in front of it and the LMII was gotten for a steal so yeah.. Just looking for a good/better cab now. Maybe a Epifani 2x10 or 1x12 or Aguilar Db112NT. Not sure how to go about finding a good cab. All of you guys are going a really long way in making me feel secure about my choice of Little Mark II, plus the sound girl at my musical gig loves it. :-)

Thanks,
John

RickenBoogie · #10 07-28-2010, 05:32 PM

Aside from having an issue with Mesa's CS, what's not to love about the Walkabout. It can easily power a much larger speaker cab than the little 12" Scout. The cheap route, AND (imo) the best sounding option, would be to just get a nice big 4 ohm bass cab, and run the WA head through that.

LarryR · #11 07-28-2010, 06:28 PM

Can I hijack for a moment? I've never had a power/pre setup. I use my Ashdown ABM500 (30lbs) and like it. I also have a 2.5lb PJB D-200 head (150w) whose EQ is just great. Any gotcha's finding a lightweight power amp for the PJB? My idea is to replace Ashdown with a lighter weight / higher headroom mini rig. I'm told there are several lightweight power amps, D class, under 10lbs, delivering 8-1000 watts into 4ohm mono. If so, I can get twice the headroom of an LMII (with PJB's superior EQ - IMO) for 13lbs (excluding rack). Are my assumptions correct? Are these new D class power amps (Peavey, Carvin) as good as the power amps in Markbass, Mesa Walkabout etc?

Whitbass · #12 07-28-2010, 07:12 PM

Personally, I am not so impressed with the VT pedal/Sansamp RBI in front of the LMII/LMIII. IMHO, the VPF and VLE filters on the LM do a great job, but mileage varies of course.....

I am hearing great things about the new GK Neo stuff, but I do highly recommend that you try the Bergantinos.....
I really like the Bergs 4x10s.....but basically all the Bergs

btw, I am not saying that MB is better than Mesa, just that if you're looking for a good affordable head, that you already seem to like, I and many can vouch for the MB stuff........

just don't cut yourself short, give everything possible a listen....

TheBasicBassist · #13 07-29-2010, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

Aside from having an issue with Mesa's CS, what's not to love about the Walkabout. It can easily power a much larger speaker cab than the little 12" Scout. The cheap route, AND (imo) the best sounding option, would be to just get a nice big 4 ohm bass cab, and run the WA head through that.

That's a good point, the Walkabout is a great amp (from what I can remember, it's been in the shop two months, almost!) I might just be a fickle person but I'm not sure that I feel comfortable supporting and standing behind a company that refuses to stand behind it's buyer, IMO/E; if I had bought used I could understand them being a little bit less than helpful but this was purchased new less that a year ago. We'll see if I/we/they can straighten things out. A rep called back but didn't really tell me too much that I haven't heard just yet.

On a side note. That's a great idea Rickenboogie. Anyone know if the LMII can run at 4 ohm as well? Thanks all!

lomo · #14 07-29-2010, 06:16 AM

LM2 runs fine at 4 oHMS. I'd wait until the WA is fixed and audition both the LM2 and WA together through a 212, pair of 12s or pair of 210s (depending on your volume and low end needs) and decide then. I'd blow off the rack; IMO it'll increase complexity and expense in exchange for no sonic benefit.

lbwdog · #15 07-29-2010, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBasicBassist

On a side note. That's a great idea Rickenboogie. Anyone know if the LMII can run at 4 ohm as well? Thanks all!

Sure, 4ohms is minimum, and some say ideal for an LM.

I personally favor an integrated amp head + cab, as opposed to a pre/power/ cab setup. I've used both. The amp choices these days are wonderful, and can produce as much volume and tone as anyone could need.

jnewmark · #16 07-29-2010, 06:22 AM

I go back and forth on this issue alot and use both types of setups. I have an F1 that I use, but I have also a pre/power rig that I use sometimes, and also have used the F1 as a preamp into a power amp. Carvin makes a nice, cheap, 1000 watt power amp ( bridged into 4 ohms ), that weighs 10 lbs, that sounds good with the F1. Best of both worlds, imho.

rekesbass · #17 07-29-2010, 06:56 AM

OP<you said the amp(mesa) is only a year old..You do know that it is still under warranty ?? did you mail in the warranty card? did you buy the amp at a authorized Mesa dealer??....everyone who owns(or has owned) a Mesa usually gets taken care of pretty well by CS..their CS is second to none..what did they tell you "that you already hadn't heard before"...not tryin to sound like a d!ck,just wonderin ..this doesn't sound like the Mesa CS that I know..

Son of Bovril · #18 07-29-2010, 09:12 AM

I personally do not think you are gonna find it worhwhile to convert to a pre/power rig... I doubt there will be much/if any sonic advantage if you are already happy with the sound of your MB LMII and it'll only be making your rig bigger and more compicated for no reason

TheBasicBassist · #19 07-29-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekesbass

OP<you said the amp(mesa) is only a year old..You do know that it is still under warranty ?? did you mail in the warranty card? did you buy the amp at a authorized Mesa dealer??....everyone who owns(or has owned) a Mesa usually gets taken care of pretty well by CS..their CS is second to none..what did they tell you "that you already hadn't heard before"...not tryin to sound like a d!ck,just wonderin ..this doesn't sound like the Mesa CS that I know..

Yes, I know that I'm still under warranty.
Yes, I bought the amplifier from an authorized Mesa dealer.

To answer your question, what I was told at Mesa was, "Either the tubes need to be replaced or make sure that the effects loop is bypassed." The amp's been in the repair shop for almost two months, still, with no change in condition.

The reason I said that their customer service rubbed me the wrong way was that it took them nearly a month to return my phone call, after leaving multiple voicemails for their CS department because I couldn't ever get someone on the phone.

Thanks,
John

Blissful_Bass · #20 07-29-2010, 01:54 PM

The only combo amp was my first practice amp....Think it was a Crate and it's buried in storage at the moment. Since then I've gone with bass head and speaker combos. First real rig was a Peavey Mark IV head with a Peavey 3620 "The Casket."

These days, my rig consists of an Alembic F-1X into a QSC PL2-236 power amp and a Basson 4x10. Except for a faulty volume knob on the Alembic, I have sound that's rich and full of bottom!

One important thing to remember when going the pre/power/speaker route that doesn't get mentioned very often is a specification of the power amp. The higher the damping factor of the amplifier, the more control the amp has over the speakers drivers. The PL2-236 has a damping factor of >500.

As some of you may have noticed, my power amp is over kill for my rig and are wondering why I do that. It's better to have a bigger amp with more headroom that you can turn down at the input gain stage of the power amp. How did I reach that conclusion? I work at a sound company and have been taught that the power amps require more headroom to properly drive the speakers. If a speaker is rated at 1000 watts, don't buy a 1,000 watt amp. Buy an amp that can put out at least 1.5x the required power (1,500 watts in this example).

If you disagree, please speak up! I'd like to know if I'm wrong about any of this.