Bass that cuts through the mix

[MichaelSmalley]

Here's my problem: When I am playing at a gig, I get a great sound out of my amp (Line 6 ld175): Good tone for slap, ghost notes, nice fingerstyle sound, etc... but if I go out in the room, any distance away from my amp, all that gets lost and it just sounds a bit... generic and muddy.

This really frustrates me, because I've spent a lot of time working on technique and dialing in my amp the way I want it.

I go direct out from my amp to the mixer, so there's another eq on the board that I can mess with, but I can't seem to give the sound the character I'm looking for. Do I need a higher powered amp? (I'll be upgrading soon anyways, maybe Hartke lh1000, any thoughts?) Do I need to change my amp eq to be harsher or tinnier up close so it will cut through the rest of the band? Mic my rig instead of direct out (what mic to use?)?

Sorry if I'm rambling- I seem to have a hard time articulating my thoughts once I actually try to post something here. Any help you all can offer will be appreciated.

[jelwood]

It is probably not so much your amp as your cabinet. I used to shove 350 watts through a 410. I thought I was groovin' everyone until I actually went out there and to my horror, realized that my sound was completely lost just thirty feet out. Got a much more higher powered 412 after that, and it has made the biggest difference I could ever imagine. I still shove 350 watts through it, but it really is the cabinet that did the trick.

Edit: you should consider a GK when you upgrade

[Greevus]

I'm with Jelwood. Sounds like the cab. I used to play 15"s until I realized the same thing about getting far away. I switched to 10"s and they project so much better across the stage. The 15"s would sound great right in front of them and in the back of the club. I can feel the 10"s all over the stage.

[MichaelSmalley]

Thanks guys-
Yeah the LD175 is a 115 combo, so I'll need a whole new rig to get a 410 cab. That isn't a bad thing- I've been playing on this amp for a few years and it probably is time for an upgrade to more professional gear.

It's funny because I never bothered to get a cord longer than 10 feet because I'm always right by my amp, but recently I bought a 30' cord on a whim and I decided to jump off stage to hear how my band sounded from the dance floor and I found out that from 20 feet away I lost all the nuance that I get from 4 feet away. It seems obvious to me now, but I just figured the PA would do a decent job of reproducing my amp sound. It doesn't. Just think... I'd be happy as a clam if I hadn't bought that cord.

[redefine dave]

If you're playing with a PA you need to only be worrying about the first 20 feet or so. At 30+ feet, any sound guy worth a damn should be pumping theh PA to the audience...
Also, what's your EQ look like? What might sound good in a practice situation or right in front of your rig usually doesn't end up cutting through the mix.

[RMacBass]

Check out pp. 62-63 "Woodshed" by Bryan Beller in the August 2010 issue of Bass Player. It details some strategies on how to clean up your live sound.

[62bass]

I use GK amps and one or two 15" speaker cabinets for loud gigs. I don't get lost or muddy. If you have a good amp, use your eq properly and have a good bass you'll be heard fine. I also don't like to be the loudest guy in the band so I don't try to "cut through the mix" but instead keep the bass in it's proper sonic perspective. Of course, if you're the lead soloist and you're the guy fronting the band and people are coming to hear you play bass and the rest of the band is just there to accompany you, things are different.

[HookerRoad]

Originally Posted by 62bass

I use GK amps and one or two 15" speaker cabinets for loud gigs. I don't get lost or muddy. If you have a good amp, use your eq properly and have a good bass you'll be heard fine. I also don't like to be the loudest guy in the band so I don't try to "cut through the mix" but instead keep the bass in it's proper sonic perspective. Of course, if you're the lead soloist and you're the guy fronting the band and people are coming to hear you play bass and the rest of the band is just there to accompany you, things are different.

I agree with every word of this. I was always dis-satisfied with my sound until I started running a GK amp. But cutting through a mix... hmmm. Sounds like a soundman or band problem too. I don't care if I "cut through a mix." I'm a happy fingered bassist... meaning I play lots of notes. You need note definition if you play fast. A bass should be "a part of the mix" not cut through it. Solo instruments need to cut through a mix... But a bass is the bottom end... how can you not hear it if the volume is correct. What's the first thing you hear when approaching an establishment hosting a live band? THE BASS. It's pulsing and pounding through the walls much farther than any other instrument.

Question... when you get out 20 feet from the stage do you keep walking to the other end of the hall to see how it sounds on the back wall? Probably not. Low bass frequencies are so long that you can't even physically hear them standing right in front of your amp. What you are hearing is a mix of your low-mid to high range frequencies. If you adjust your tone by standing 5 feet in front of your amp you will never understand how it is projecting out front. The largest source of mud to a bass guitar is the 400 to 500 hertz range. Cut the bass in that frequency and you will gain note definition without sacrificing fullness in the bottom. Some rooms resonate really bad in the 100 to 300 hertz range. This means those frequencies will be amplified by the room. This is why a lot of bass amps have a low cut switch... to kill those frequencies in a "boomy" room.

All this said... you could be beating your head against the wall if you get all this straightened out and your band is just too friggin loud. Guitar players can be your worst enemy. A lot of guitarist want a "phat" sound. So they boost their bass knob up on their amp so they can feel the power. The only problem with that is there is a place on the floor in front of the stage where all those low frequencies converge... at which point canceling can occur. The cure is to try to get guitarist to like a thinner sound. The thinner sound will cut through for them better and not step on your frequencies that cause your notes to get muddled.

A good sound man understands these phenomenons... but those guys are hard to find, especially for a hobby band.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by HookerRoad

Low bass frequencies are so long that you can't even physically hear them standing right in front of your amp.

Close, no cigar, but still closer to the truth of the matter than the other replies.
OP, when you're close to the amp you're also close to the walls and ceiling near it, and the reflections off those boundaries can mask the low end output. How and why explained here:
http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm

Out in the audience the boundary distance to listener relationships change, and the low end becomes more audible, masking the mids and highs that define tone. It will always sound different in the audience than on stage. Your choice is to set the amp to sound good on stage, or in the room, but getting it perfect in both places is almost impossible. That's where the PA comes in. You set your amp for your stage tone, the PA is set for the room tone. Getting that room tone right is the tough part, requiring a hand at the FOH that really knows what he's doing. IME even in the top tier of pro-touring only 20% or so of FOH engineers really get it right; most of them are bassplayers and recording engineers, or both.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Close, no cigar, but still closer to the truth of the matter than the other replies.
OP, when you're close to the amp you're also close to the walls and ceiling near it, and the reflections off those boundaries can mask the low end output. How any why explained here:
http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm

Out in the audience the boundary distance to listener relationships change, and the low end becomes more audible, masking the mids and highs that define tone. It will always sound different in the audience than on stage. Your choice is to set the amp to sound good on stage, or in the room, but getting it perfect in both places is almost impossible. That's where the PA comes in. You set your amp for your stage tone, the PA is set for the room tone. Getting that room tone right is the tough part, requiring a hand at the FOH that really knows what he's doing. IME even in the top tier of pro-touring only 20% or so of FOH engineers really get it right; most of them are bassplayers and recording engineers, or both.

This is why, sort of counter-intuitively, I find that having a single cab closer to the floor helps with this situation more than some sort of 'vertical stack' up close to your ears. Since the midrange is more directional, having a cab like a 410 (yes, I know there are other issues with that design, but that's another topic) sitting on the floor results (IMO and IME) in a sound on stage that is closer to the sound out in the audience.

Since the mids are more directional and the bass is more omnidirectional as the frequencies get lower, the mids tend to 'shoot through your legs' versus blasting you in the ears with a taller stack. This results in you being able to turn the mids and treble up and bit, and lower the bass to, as you point out, result in a better 'out in the audience' tone (carpets, drapes and people also tend to 'absorb' those shorted wavelengths also), but still have a relatively balanced and accurate sound on stage (i.e., the ominidirectiolity of the bass will balance nicely with the more directional, boosted mid and treble when the cab is well below ear level).

The current fad (for some) of stacking two cabs like vertical 210's so that the top speaker is close to your ear can REALLY fool you, since you will have to do just the opposite of what is needed out in the room to get a good tone on stage... crank the bass and soften the mids and treble that are directionally blaring in your ear.

Of course, if you have front of house support, this all becomes a moot point, but many, many, many players do gigs without PA support.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by HookerRoad

Question... when you get out 20 feet from the stage do you keep walking to the other end of the hall to see how it sounds on the back wall? Probably not. Low bass frequencies are so long that you can't even physically hear them standing right in front of your amp.

Another myth that won't die..........................

Absolutely UNTRUE - if it were true, you would not be able to hear low frequencies in your car, or through headphones.

The OP's problem could be from a couple of things:

A single 15 (just like a 2X10) is not going to move alot of air, and easily gets lost in a loud band.

EQ'ing - if you have your mids scooped (smiley face EQ), you are not going to be heard unless you are pushing alot of watts through multiple speakers. Best way to be heard is to use your mids to cut through.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

A single 15 (just like a 2X10) is not going to move alot of air, and easily gets lost in a loud band.

EQ'ing - if you have your mids scooped (smiley face EQ), you are not going to be heard unless you are pushing alot of watts through multiple speakers. Best way to be heard is to use your mids to cut through.

+1 More importantly than my comment above, if you have a cab that is too small to push the amount of air you need for the room, and/or you EQ mids down too much, nothing much good will happen 10 feet+ from the source.

[redefine dave]

Originally Posted by HookerRoad

I agree with every word of I don't care if I "cut through a mix." I'm a happy fingered bassist... meaning I play lots of notes. You need note definition if you play fast. A bass should be "a part of the mix" not cut through it. Solo instruments need to cut through a mix... But a bass is the bottom end... how can you not hear it if the volume is correct.

I think you're confusing cutting through and volume. Cutting through is being able to hear the range of notes you play through the mix, not about being louder volume wise. Cutting through to me is in the EQ of your preamp, bass, and fingers rather than volume.
And you may not care about cutting through, but as for me, I'm playing up and down the fretboard, using every string. If I'm not cutting through, chances are there are a lot of people, along with myself that can't here what I'm trying to say on the bass.
My last rig didn't cut through too well, but it was plenty loud volume wise. After playing a few times with the new rig I was able to turn down on the volume, but cut through the mix with ease. My loudass guitarist who uses a loudass Mesa commented on how articulate the rig was, and how he was hearing every small detail in my playing, all the while not blowing him away with lows and what not.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by HookerRoad

Low bass frequencies are so long that you can't even physically hear them standing right in front of your amp.

I have heard this many times and I am convinced this is a myth. The core of the myth is that you can't hear a note unless the sine wave has completed its cycle. (this would be good for mythbusters to test) If this were true then when you mike your bass cab you would not get any low end unless the mike was placed 20 or 30 feet away.

The truth is high frequencies are more directional and will die out faster and lows not directional and travel farther before dying out. That is why the farther you get from your amp the more you just hear the bass.

The best approach is your bass amp is used for stage volume only and a big pa is used to fill the room. To get your sound into the pa mike your rig on stage.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Ric5

The truth is high frequencies...will die out faster and lows...travel farther before dying out. .

Also a myth. All frequencies are reduced by the same 6dB per doubling of distance from the source. Very high frequencies, above roughly 8kHz, are attenuated more at very long distances by friction with the air, but the distances involved are too great to be a concern indoors, and above 8kHz is moot where the electric bass is concerned.

[bass4worship]

Adjust your mid's to rollover at about 500Hz found that to work for me.

[sirmike75]

sounds like the club has a crappy sound guy...exp if you are going direct

[nostatic]

Mids are your friend. The specifics depend on the instrumentation of your band and style of music.

[62bass]

Well said Hooker except for the bit about the length of the low frequency soundwave.

Guitarists are a big source of trouble unless they're real pros. Not many of them around.They almost all play way too loud and use too much bass eg. They're very hard to train. The problem is getting worse with the younger and newer guys appearing on the scene and the older and more experienced ones leaving.

There was a festival July 4th weekend at a local park 2 blocks from where I live. I've listened for the last 5 years.The sound from the bands on stage and the PA keeps getting worse each year. The bands sound bad and the sound guys are incompetent even they're supposed to be with a pro outfit. It no longer sounds like music. Even some of the audience is beginning to notice and attendance is falling off.

[derrico1]

You hear bass and kick drum when you walk up to a club not because the low frequencies "travel farther" than high frequencies (they don't, as BFM observes).

Instead, the high frequencies are more effectively reduced by modest barriers such as the club's walls, patrons, and other acoustic treatments.