BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

father of fires · #1 07-19-2010, 08:25 AM

I just want to say this for all of the underground punk and metal guys. Or the guys playing basement shows. Or the bar bands playing dives. Or the poorly planned outdoor benefit shows. Or hardcore shows in 4 H clubs.

Ahem.

We have to use big amps and cabs because none of the shows we play have PA support.

I rarely see this mentioned. I play original music and have resigned myself to a life of playing awesome music with awesome bands in less than awesome venues. Vocals and sometimes kick drum are the only things that get miked up.

Then every time I see a "why are there big amps?" thread, I wait patiently for someone to mention this and they never do.

/rant.

panama · #2 07-19-2010, 08:36 AM

As someone who has played in local punk, hardcore, and indie bands for 10+ years I will give this a +1.

Best case scenario your drummer gets his toms mic'd too!

will33 · #3 07-19-2010, 08:36 AM

There are a lot more people who play in situations like this than some people think. Although in a lot of larger cities, clubs often do have house PA's and people there assume it's like that everywhere. Just because there is a house PA doesn't mean it's any good or all the pieces and parts are hooked up correctly or that there's even enough working cables to hook it all up. It also doesn't mean there's a house soundguy who knows how to run it. A lot of the smaller clubs around here do have "house PA's". Often times that means someone who doesn't know anything about it got sold on a Behringer package deal. I can't count the number of times we had to reverse engineer whatever the band the night before did to it to get ourselves sounding passable, not even that good. Tracking down bad cables, figuring out which channels in the board are dead and which ones work, which monitor sends work which monitors, etc. You end up getting the vocals in there, some keys, maybe a little kick. Worry about any more than that and you'll be late starting the show so that's what you end up with. Mix a little more on the fly if you can by watching peoples reactions getting beat in the face with piano or guitar lines. They'll usually tell you if they can't hear the lead vocal. Having a pair of trusted ears in the audience always helps. I just bring enough rig for the gig, whatever that may be. If there happens to be enough PA for me and someone on the other end of it who knows what they're doing, I can always turn down on stage. If not, I make sure I can carry the room if need be.

perogato02 · #4 07-19-2010, 08:41 AM

+ 1 for all things mentioned above!!

megadan · #5 07-19-2010, 08:44 AM

Yup. After a 5 year stint in an instrumental band, we were equally at home with or without the PA. It made no difference to our sound or volume, really

Son of Bovril · #6 07-19-2010, 08:45 AM

this sounds like most of the average club gigs around here... We started charging a little extra and bringing in a reliable PA ourselves. The shows got better, we started drawing more crowd and were able to up the fee further. If you know the PA is gonna be rubbish, split the cost between the bands playing or dedicate part of the fee to supplying a decent PA and engineer who you trust... in the end everyone benefits and you end up securing yourselves more shows

panama · #7 07-19-2010, 08:58 AM

What is funny is that oftentimes the PA being used for the vox/maybe drums has a few extra inputs that could be used for guitars or bass, but the club is too cheap to buy the mics.

mccartneyman · #8 07-19-2010, 09:00 AM

I played for the first 6 years of my career, starting in 1965, with no PA support. After that it was usually everything BUT the bass that got miked. Last club band I was in, we miked the snare & kick but no amps -- not the best solution, but one which allowed us to carry a relatively small PA.

varunkapahi · #9 07-19-2010, 09:02 AM

have never played a gig without a pa but then i must have only played around 50 gigs maybe. and i mean full pa support for bass, guitars, keys, drums everything. but maybe thats the reason we dont get paid much because a lot of money goes into hiring the pa for the event

SteveC · #10 07-19-2010, 09:06 AM

I'm just thankful that I do play gigs that don't require anything more than my combo amp. I'm not telling anyone else what they do or don't need, I'm just saying that I can get buy just fine without a big rig.

father of fires · #11 07-19-2010, 09:07 AM

+1 to having to search through the club's box of mic cables to find one that works.

My old bass teacher was also a photographer and he took pictures of one of his others student's band. This was at a typical low budget show at a crappy club. He came back to me all confused as to why these bands would play a show where they basically played for the other bands and didn't get paid. He'd never heard of such a thing.

Just to show that these are truly different worlds:

I tried to get a gig at one of the clubs my teacher played and he warned me that I better have 3 separate 1 hour sets to get in the door. Up until that point, I had never heard of something like this.

JMac4strngr · #12 07-19-2010, 09:14 AM

I agree with you guys 110%. I still lug around a monster of an amp because a lot of the dives we play aren't set up for PA support of the guitar or bass. I have allways wanted to try micro cabs and the like, but I fear that they would fall short of providing the volume on tap if I needed it. I feel that it is "better to have and not need than to need and not have".

fu22ba55 · #13 07-19-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by father of fires

Then every time I see a "why are there big amps?" thread, I wait patiently for someone to mention this and they never do.

I know I've mentioned it at least once before. This was just two months ago:

How loud do you really have to be?

post #9

Quote:

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

If you're a session guy, living in the city, moving around alot, then smaller is better, and chances are you're playing music that is relatively listenable and accessible. And you're playing clubs with FOH support.

But be aware that there's a burgeoning movement of "amp-worship" bands that play rat holes and freeway overpasses and parking lots with no PA whatsoever.

Big +1 for playing rat holes with no cover charge, no PA, no electricity...

blendermassacre · #14 07-19-2010, 09:31 AM

most of the small shows I go to have some pa, but definitely not enough. Big cabs FTW.

father of fires · #15 07-19-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

I know I've mentioned it at least once before. This was just two months ago:

How loud do you really have to be?

post #9

Big +1 for playing rat holes with no cover charge, no PA, no electricity...

Sweet. At least I'm not alone in this. But, I wouldn't say it's limited to amp worship bands that want to be loud. Some regular rock bands are forced to play without support.

Amp worshipers (which I'm guilty of) take pride in not needing a PA. Hell, I used to play an old Acoustic 370 for the purpose of blowing any house system out of the water. I made this post more for the little guy who'd love to play a smaller rig but can't and come to Talkbass for help only to be told they should use the house PA which, for them doesn't exist.

shadow_FIX · #16 07-19-2010, 09:37 AM

This is why I have a 2x10, 1x15, and a 4x10. I never run them at the same time, but each cab serves its purpose for whatever gig I may come across. Plus I have ONE HEAD TO RULE THEM ALL!

fu22ba55 · #17 07-19-2010, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by father of fires

Sweet. At least I'm not alone in this. But, I wouldn't say it's limited to amp worship bands that want to be loud. Some regular rock bands are forced to play without support.

And sometimes it's just a better sound. Use the PA just for vox and maybe the kick drum, and let the amps do the rest of the work. My SVT sounds 100 times better than some junior varsity PA. As long as you have someone you trust telling you who needs to turn up or turn down (and you listen to that person), playing sans PA is no big whoop.

father of fires · #18 07-19-2010, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

And sometimes it's just a better sound. Use the PA just for vox and maybe the kick drum, and let the amps do the rest of the work. My SVT sounds 100 times better than some junior varsity PA. As long as you have someone you trust telling you who needs to turn up or turn down (and you listen to that person), playing sans PA is no big whoop.

It definitely is no problem. I just get the feeling sometimes that the vast majority of TB'ers have not played a show like this.

ZiggyDude · #19 07-19-2010, 10:04 AM

Both bands supply the PA as the clubs usually don't about here. We don't use bottoms as it is not worth the trouble just for putting the bass through. Why carry two bottoms, an extra power amp, crossover, cables, and all the rest when my just bringing in the right rig does the work.

Now granted - if the place was huge it would be different. But for 200 people clubs this works just great - and - I get to control my own tone!

blendermassacre · #20 07-19-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fu22ba55

And sometimes it's just a better sound. Use the PA just for vox and maybe the kick drum, and let the amps do the rest of the work. My SVT sounds 100 times better than some junior varsity PA. As long as you have someone you trust telling you who needs to turn up or turn down (and you listen to that person), playing sans PA is no big whoop.

agreed. a $500 or even a $1000 pa can't compete with a $1000 bass rig.