Berg AE410, Eden D212XLT, or Aggie GS212?

[Arthur U. Poon]

I own a few older Berg cabs(HT210 & HT115), and 2 Aggie GS112's.

While I really like the cabs I have, I'm looking for a medium sized cab with a good amount of volume. I use a rackmounted Demeter HBP-1 pre and a Crest CA9 setup. I couldn't be happier with my tone.

I mainly play a 6-string and a 5-string, so I need a cab that can handle a B-string. I'm mainly a fingerstyle player and I play mainly Classic Rock, old R&B, and a bit of Blues and Country. I strive for more of a retro early 70's P-Bass sound/Rock/Soul tone and want to avoid a mid scooped, modern sounding cab.

For my style a warm, punchy, low-mids sound seems to work best.

BTW I haven't ruled out 10's and 15's altogether. I've just found That I really like 12's; IMO they're a nice "link" between 15's & 10's.

P.S., Just my luck that Bergantino no longer offers the HT212!

Thanks in advance for the replies.

[KJung]

Those early Berg HT's with the big horns would not (as you know) get you to your new tone goal... sizzly highs, huge lows, polite mids. Very nice, but the opposite of 'low mid punchy and warmth' to me... and they weighed a TON.

If you don't mind a little weight, the Berg HS410 has the inherent tone that you describe... tight in the deep lows (i.e., a bit attenuated way down low), BIG upper bass/low mid punch, balanced mid mids, attenuated (read... 'smooth') upper mids, and a decent tweeter that can be turned down (the 9 o'clock setting sounds great to me for an 'old school warm punch with articulation).

I love the AE410, but it is an aggressive, upper mid grindy beast. That can be controlled pretty well if you have the ability to cut around 1 octave wide at 800-1K... otherwise, probably too bright for you.

I love the 212XLT, and that's another good option, but the HS410 will slay it volume-wise.

IMO and IME!

[KJung]

Ps Don't get hung up on driver size... these days, there is very little correlation between driver size and tone.

[Arthur U. Poon]

Originally Posted by KJung

Those early Berg HT's with the big horns would not (as you know) get you to your new tone goal... sizzly highs, huge lows, polite mids. Very nice, but the opposite of 'low mid punchy and warmth' to me... and they weighed a TON.

If you don't mind a little weight, the Berg HS410 has the inherent tone that you describe... tight in the deep lows (i.e., a bit attenuated way down low), BIG upper bass/low mid punch, balanced mid mids, attenuated (read... 'smooth') upper mids, and a decent tweeter that can be turned down (the 9 o'clock setting sounds great to me for an 'old school warm punch with articulation).

I love the AE410, but it is an aggressive, upper mid grindy beast. That can be controlled pretty well if you have the ability to cut around 1 octave wide at 800-1K... otherwise, probably too bright for you.

I love the 212XLT, and that's another good option, but the HS410 will slay it volume-wise.

IMO and IME!

Thanks, Ken! I was hoping you were close by! I was wondering about the Berg HS410. But aren't the HS line a bit shallower that the old HT line? The reason I ask is will the HS410 support my monster rack?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

Thanks, Ken! I was hoping you were close by! I was wondering about the Berg HS410. But aren't the HS line a bit shallower that the old HT line? The reason I ask is will the HS410 support my monster rack?

The HS410 and AE410 are both thinner than the typical 410 front to back... I think 15"... the specs are on the site.

Not sure about supporting an extra deep rack. The HS410 is full weight... around 90 pounds or so with casters.... so that should be pretty stable, and the rubber feet of racks are usually a bit closer together versus being on the edge of the rack.

[Arthur U. Poon]

Hi Ken, how do you think a pair of HS210's would work?

[tombowlus]

Yup, an HS410 was my first thought, as well, after reading your tone goals.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

Hi Ken, how do you think a pair of HS210's would work?

I have not directly compared 2 x HS210 with the HS410, but I would assume it would be close. However... careful, the HS210's are even thinner front to back than the HS410 (Jim keeps the internal volume between 2 x HS210's and HS410 similar... but the speakers in the HS210 are 'offset'... meaning the HS210 is taller than 'half the HS410', resulting in Jim reducing the front to back dimension (I think 12 inches or something like that). That would probably be a problem with a big rack of gear.

[Arthur U. Poon]

I'm not real crazy about the weight of the HS410. But if it's the only cab to get the sound I'm hoping to get, I do have a nice hand truck.

I've been reading about Epifani's 410UL lately; any thoughts on it's tone?

How about Accugroove, Acme, LDS, etc.?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

I'm not real crazy about the weight of the HS410. But if it's the only cab to get the sound I'm hoping to get, I do have a nice hand truck.

I've been reading about Epifani's 410UL lately; any thoughts on it's tone?

How about Accugroove, Acme, LDS, etc.?

I still use my 410UL on occasion... it is wide, deep, smooth and airy up top..... surely not low mid punchy. I always feel the need to pump up the low mids down around 200hz with that amp. Very wide and pure, and closer in vibe to your older Berg HT cabs than the newer Berg HS's or AE's. Also, they stopped using the ultra lightweight poplar, so they are a bit heavier now... about the same as the AE410... mid 60 pound.

The HT410 comes with super duper 3" castors installed FYI.

[low_boy]

I know you state that you are very happy with your preamp/amp, but my tone goals are in line with yours and I ran the older Demeter 201 pre with my CA9 for quite a while without ever feeling that I was getting the sound I wanted. I used a variety of cabs (mostly Berg HT and NV). I finally found an older ampeg svt-IIp preamp and instantly got the sound I was after even with the HT cab. It is definitely not the solution if you're going for a hi-fi sound but it's just so rich sounding without being distorted it makes everything sound full and really captures that classic bass sound. I realize the HBP has a more powerful eq so maybe that's enough to make the difference compared to the 201(?) Anyway, it does seem like if you haven't tried it another preamp might be worth checking out.

BTW, I realize this thread is about finding you a new cab...so sorry if I veered in the wrong direction.

[Arthur U. Poon]

Originally Posted by low_boy

I know you state that you are very happy with your preamp/amp, but my tone goals are in line with yours and I ran the older Demeter 201 pre with my CA9 for quite a while without ever feeling that I was getting the sound I wanted. I used a variety of cabs (mostly Berg HT and NV). I finally found an older ampeg svt-IIp preamp and instantly got the sound I was after even with the HT cab. It is definitely not the solution if you're going for a hi-fi sound but it's just so rich sounding without being distorted it makes everything sound full and really captures that classic bass sound. I realize the HBP has a more powerful eq so maybe that's enough to make the difference compared to the 201(?) Anyway, it does seem like if you haven't tried it another preamp might be worth checking out.

BTW, I realize this thread is about finding you a new cab...so sorry if I veered in the wrong direction.

No problem at all, I appreciate your input. The older Ampeg pre's are killer. That's certainly a good thing for me to look into.

I also have one of Jack Read's early Purity tube preamps. The Purity sounds "Tubey-er" to my ears, but I prefer the Demeter HBP-1 because it feels "quicker". I also really dig the Demeter's defeatable parametric eq.

Please folks, keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate it.

[Arthur U. Poon]

Originally Posted by KJung

I still use my 410UL on occasion... it is wide, deep, smooth and airy up top..... surely not low mid punchy. I always feel the need to pump up the low mids down around 200hz with that amp. Very wide and pure, and closer in vibe to your older Berg HT cabs than the newer Berg HS's or AE's. Also, they stopped using the ultra lightweight poplar, so they are a bit heavier now... about the same as the AE410... mid 60 pound.

The HT410 comes with super duper 3" castors installed FYI.

Thanks Ken!

Nothing smaller and more modular that you can think of? I certainly don't rule out buying 2 smaller cabs so I can run both channels of my CA9.

I bet 2 HS410's would probably knock down some walls!

[Arthur U. Poon]

Would a pair of Acme Low B2's get me the sound/volume I'm looking for? I'd think my CA9 has enough power to run 2 of them in stereo.

[5StringPocket]

Have you considered the Genz Benz Uber 212T or 410T cabs? I auditionned the Uber 212T and Berg AE410 with my Epi UL410 and ended up getting the Uber 212T. This cab is a very loud 212 (102db) with a lot of low mid punch and growl. The Uber 212 sat between the Epi and Berg, having tighter and more focused lows than the UL410 but a little bigger and burlier than the AE410. The Uber tone was not as mid scooped as the UL410 but didn't quite have the mid presence of the AE410. I didn't think a 212 could hang with a 410 but this cab surprized me. My testing was with a Shuttle Max 12.0 amp and Lakland 55-94D ash/maple bass. I walked in set on the Berg. The AE410 has a beautiful balance to it but the Uber 212T has a nice touch of old school grunt and just spoke to me. It sits very well in the mix between the kick drum and rhythm guitar with good punch and articulation. Nice thick bass and low mids but not boomy. I haven't had the chance to play the Uber 410T yet but understand it has a nicely balanced character like the AE410 but with a little more low end and not quite as much upper mid grind. The 212T weighs 63 lbs and the 410T is 72 lbs. Both cabs are 18" deep. Guitar Factory has an incredible deal on the GB410T right now of $650 shipped and it would slam with a CA9!
http://www.theguitarfactory.com/alli...Enclosure.html

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

Would a pair of Acme Low B2's get me the sound/volume I'm looking for? I'd think my CA9 has enough power to run 2 of them in stereo.

When you bring a CA9 into the equation, those Low-B2's just might be a viable option.

[Arthur U. Poon]

5StringPocket, thanks for suggesting the Genz Benz 212; I hadn't thought of looking at their products, but I certainly will.

Hi Tom, I get through Colorado regularly, so I may call Andy and ask him if I could hear his cabs through my bass and amp to hear how they work together.

BTW, I drive through Ohio quite often. I've seen a few Bowlus Trucking rigs running the OH Turnpike; Any relation?

Thanks folks. Please keep the ideas coming.

[kerryg]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

Would a pair of Acme Low B2's get me the sound/volume I'm looking for? I'd think my CA9 has enough power to run 2 of them in stereo.

My tone goals are very similar to your own - as a point of reference, I think the tone of an SVT on a big stage with a killer monitor mix is my own personal (if largely impractical) tone Nirvana. I've owned an Acme B2 - it's a wonderful cab, but while it's capable of giving you a phenomenal sound, I don't believe it will inherently get you what I (from that point of reference) think of as "punchy".

I found it to be the opposite - smooth, warm and deep, with the punchier aspects of the mids inherently "compressed" sounding. I could never get a dynamic, "burpy" yet still warm sound out of the cab itself, and was always trying to EQ it in before giving up. I admit I wasn't powering it as well as I could have been (Eden WT400) which may have been an issue - but the issue was exactly the same at tiny singer songwriter gigs as it was when driving a band. Shy of inherent "low punch".

I'm strongly leaning towards checking out a pair of Berg AE210s and adding more power - or building a pair of composite cabs (ie ZacLite) and adding more power - maybe a fEarful design, or perhaps two 2x10s if I can find a design that looks like it will hit my tone goals.

[Arthur U. Poon]

Thanks for your thoughts, Kerry.

I'm kind of stumped at this point. I may have to go with a custom cab builder; I've been looking a lot at Lown Down Sound's site.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Arthur U. Poon

BTW, I drive through Ohio quite often. I've seen a few Bowlus Trucking rigs running the OH Turnpike; Any relation?

Yes, but you have to go back to the Civil War era, I believe. There were Bowluses in what is now Northwestern Ohio before Ohio was a state. I hear one of my intrepid ancestors had a massive collection of washtub basses.