The Berg HD212 Thread!!

[J.Wolf]

If we're comparing the AE212 to the HD212, one other factor that is a big deal (to me), and skews a direct A/B comparison is the difference between front (HD) and rear (AE) porting.

For the life of me, I can't get down with rear ported cabs. I would love for an AE212 to make me eat my words, but rear porting has been a dealbreaker for pretty much every great sounding rear ported cab I've tried.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

If we're comparing the AE212 to the HD212, one other factor that is a big deal (to me), and skews a direct A/B comparison is the difference between front (HD) and rear (AE) porting.

For the life of me, I can't get down with rear ported cabs. I would love for an AE212 to make me eat my words, but rear porting has been a dealbreaker for pretty much every great sounding rear ported cab I've tried.

Port location has absolutely zero impact on the sound of a cab... zero. All cabs sound different from one another, but attributing that difference to the location of the port is a mistake.

Why would you care where the ports are?

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

If we're comparing the AE212 to the HD212, one other factor that is a big deal (to me), and skews a direct A/B comparison is the difference between front (HD) and rear (AE) porting.

For the life of me, I can't get down with rear ported cabs. I would love for an AE212 to make me eat my words, but rear porting has been a dealbreaker for pretty much every great sounding rear ported cab I've tried.

Wow, that is odd, because, unless you are slamming that rear port right up against a wall, it really shoud'nt make a difference where the port is located.

[J.Wolf]

I appreciate that you guys have different opinions, but I really can't understand for the life of me how you can figure that cab porting (front v rear) has zero impact on bass cab performance/consistency. Rear ported cabs sound vastly different in different settings to my ears, Ie rig placement on stages, back wall material etc..

I'm kind of shocked by the emphatic denial of this factor, but hey, different strokes for different blokes.

[alexclaber]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

Rear ported cabs sound vastly different in different settings to my ears, Ie rig placement on stages, back wall material etc..

So do front ported cabs!

But if you believe it matters more with a rear ported cab then you'll hear it - placebo effect and all that.

[J.Wolf]

Haha, cool, placebo it is.

I also believe that tolex cabs sound more vintage than carpeted ones, and black basses have a darker sound, so go figure.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

I appreciate that you guys have different opinions, but I really can't understand for the life of me how you can figure that cab porting (front v rear) has zero impact on bass cab performance/consistency. Rear ported cabs sound vastly different in different settings to my ears, Ie rig placement on stages, back wall material etc..

I'm kind of shocked by the emphatic denial of this factor, but hey, different strokes for different blokes.

You are incorrect. What you are doing is attributing the difference you hear among cabs with MANY design differences to the 'most visual' difference (the location of the ports).

The only way you can really test the 'port location' thing is to have two otherwise identical cabs that differ only in port location. If you compared them, as Alex points out, assuming the ports are designed correctly, you would hear virtually no difference regarding the impact of location. The closest you can get to that test is to compare two Acme B110's with side ports to an Acme B210 with rear ports. They sound the same!

Remember, there is VERY little directional sound coming out of a port. That being said, there are some very poorly designed rear ported cabs like the little Bag End cubes with those huge holes cut right behind the driver magnet. There is some midrange coming out of those things, and they do behave poorly in some locations. But, that is a port design issue, not a location issue IMO.

[J.Wolf]

I've owned a variety of rear ported cabs, and obviously I can't compare front ported cab A with rear ported cab A since those isolated variables don't exist.

However, the rear ported cabs I've owned have had way larger range of tonal performance especially in low end delivery depending on the factors I've listed above. I appreciate your perspective, but my personal experience has always been to the contrary.

[J.Wolf]

Ps maybe our discrepancy lies in the fact that bag end and acme cabs have been my reference point for this logic. Both of which have ports behind the drivers.

Although come to think of it, I had the same observation/experience with the newer tecamp s212 which has 2 large rectangular rear ports on the bottom.

If youre telling me it's all in my head, who am I to disagree?

Like I said originally, I would be happy to have the ae212 prove me wrong.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

I've owned a variety of rear ported cabs, and obviously I can't compare front ported cab A with rear ported cab A since those isolated variables don't exist.

However, the rear ported cabs I've owned have had way larger range of tonal performance especially in low end delivery depending on the factors I've listed above. I appreciate your perspective, but my personal experience has always been to the contrary.

Again, unfortunately you are incorrect. You are not incorrect that all cabs sound and behave differently. You are incorrect that you are attributing that difference to port location.

It is like a guy playing a Fodera Elite 5 string and a Fender 5 string and then proudly announcing to the world the 'the B string on bolt ons doesn't sustain as well as neck throughs'

FYI, this is called the 'vividness' effect in the psychological literature, and we all fall prey to it.... mistakenly attributing the primary cause of a perception or experience to the most 'obvious/vivid' visual difference.

The sound coming out of most well designed ports in omnidirectional. This is why it doesn't matter where you put the subwoofer in those 5.1 systems for TV's, etc.... it just doesn't matter since the low freq's are not directional.

[bucephylus]

Regarding ports, I suppose my preference would be to have ports in the front, because I somehow feel more air is thus getting pushed out the front in sum (recognize the direction is counterflow to the cone movement). But, to be honest as Ken says, I can't say I've heard a determining aspect to port location vs the "sound" of the cab.

The thing I do like, perception-wise, about a port location in the back is this: I just can never get the darned drummers out of the corner in gig setups. I wish they would set up more up stage where I can slide the bass cab in behind them to get some serious lock going. But, that so rarely happens that I take some consolation in thinking that those rear ports just might help them hear the bass a little bit. Who knows, it might be partially true.

[J.Wolf]

Ok then, I guess I'm wrong. And if I tell you otherwise it's somehow proof that you're more right, and my experiences are just psychological case studies.

Derail complete, sorry jefe!

[aikidorat]

Question - I'm looking at the new HD210, and was wondering how they differ from the HS210... I see and hear alot about the AE series, but not much on the HS series.. thanks

dave

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by aikidorat

Question - I'm looking at the new HD210, and was wondering how they differ from the HS210... I see and hear alot about the AE series, but not much on the HS series.. thanks

dave

As previously mentioned (in other threads), the HD210 and HD410 are going to be very similar to the HS210 and HS410. The main difference (other than the exterior treatment) is that Jim had the 10" drivers in the HD reworked to give a little more upper mids, which should be a good thing.

[bucephylus]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Ahh, but there is a compromise - the weight. Bass San Diego has the full line and, while I didn't have time to play any the other day when I was there, I did have time to lift one. It immediately reminded me of why I switched to the AE cabs. Next time I go over there (which may be tomorrow), I'll play through a couple and report back here. They all appear to be in the same boxes as their AE counterparts, only covered in Tolex rather than the spray-on stuff. There's not much doubt in my mind they will sound awesome.

+ more than 1, Munj; that was precisely my point. All things being equal, if Jim had both on the market, I would still choose the AE212 for exactly that reason. The HD surely does what Tom says, no doubt. I just don't need more than what the AE provides, and the weight tips the balance.

But, that will certainly be different for different players. Like younger cats than me.

[Jefe]

For me (operative term here) rear ported cabs are simple more difficult due to their tendency to interact with rear walls and tight corner placement (low end bloom or boom-i-ness if you want to get technical). I would agree that port location has zero effect on the "sound" of the cab. But IME it does have an effect on the sound of the cab within the room if there is tight wall placement required.

Another point of discussion about the AE212/HD212 (the weight issue is of no concern to me) is the cab voicing.
So according to what I have read, the box volume is relatively the same between HD and the AE 212 cabs. So why is this cab voiced so much lower? Obviously the crossover has a TON to do with it. But if Jim discontinued the AE line, why would he build a 212 cab that's voiced the same as the HT-EX/ER cabs that still exist? It brings back up the Neo vs. Ceramic tone debate. It seems that if you can get the same tone, regardless of magnet material, why wouldn't Jim voice these the same as the wildly popular AE line he discontinued?

(Just a discussion point. From I can tell, I think I would prefer the HD212 voicing over the AE212).

[Smallequestrian]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

Ok then, I guess I'm wrong. And if I tell you otherwise it's somehow proof that you're more right, and my experiences are just psychological case studies.

Derail complete, sorry jefe!

Ahh come on man, it's not that he's more right, it's just the laws of physics. No one doubts that you have played a bunch of rear ported cabs that you didn't dig either. Its just that correlation doesn't equal causation.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jefe

For me (operative term here) rear ported cabs are simple more difficult due to their tendency to interact with rear walls and tight corner placement (low end bloom or boom-i-ness if you want to get technical). I would agree that port location has zero effect on the "sound" of the cab. But IME it does have an effect on the sound of the cab within the room if there is tight wall placement required.

Another point of discussion about the AE212/HD212 (the weight issue is of no concern to me) is the cab voicing.
So according to what I have read, the box volume is relatively the same between HD and the AE 212 cabs. So why is this cab voiced so much lower? Obviously the crossover has a TON to do with it. But if Jim discontinued the AE line, why would he build a 212 cab that's voiced the same as the HT-EX/ER cabs that still exist? It brings back up the Neo vs. Ceramic tone debate. It seems that if you can get the same tone, regardless of magnet material, why wouldn't Jim voice these the same as the wildly popular AE line he discontinued?

(Just a discussion point. From I can tell, I think I would prefer the HD212 voicing over the AE212).

Again, per your port comment, this is incorrect. Omnidirectional is ominidirectional. However, +1 in that if a rear port is designed poorly and there is a bunch of direction sound coming out of it, location would be impacted a bit more (e.g., the little Bag End cubes). I view this more as poor port design rather than a pure location issue.

Per you second point, the HT line was also cancelled.

Not sure what the crossover would have to do with the low end response of a cab. Different drivers and different tuning can greatly change the low end response of an otherwise similarly sized box. It would be pretty hard make a cab with different drivers that would sound identical to another cab/driver combination.

[bucephylus]

If I were touring with hired hands to move gear in a big show, right now I would pick two HD212's. I do not doubt they have a little bit more push than the AE.

So, if weight is no concern for a cat, that would be the right choice. For club gigs where I'm hauling in and (particularly) out, I'll stick with the AE.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

Ok then, I guess I'm wrong. And if I tell you otherwise it's somehow proof that you're more right, and my experiences are just psychological case studies.

Derail complete, sorry jefe!

You miss the point. I'm sure what you are hearing is real, you are just attributing it to the wrong thing. +1 to the post a few posts above... correlation does not necessarily equal causation