The Berg HD212 Thread!!

[Jefe]

I always assumed it was due to coupling. You take a bass cab off the floor, you typically lose some low end response (at least you hear/feel a lower amount of response). If you placed a rear ported cab near a hollow wall or corner, the bass tended to bloom because of the air coming out of the port vibrated the walls.
These are just my non-scientific observations. No need to beat a dead horse, I believe you guys.

Ahh, I thought the HT/EX cabs were still part of the product line. Oh well, back to the discussion!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jefe

I always assumed it was due to coupling. You take a bass cab off the floor, you typically lose some low end response (at least you hear/feel a lower amount of response). If you placed a rear ported cab near a hollow wall or corner, the bass tended to bloom because of the air coming out of the port vibrated the walls.
These are just my non-scientific observations. No need to beat a dead horse, I believe you guys.

Ahh, I thought the HT/EX cabs were still part of the product line. Oh well, back to the discussion!

I'm surely no expert, but spend much of my time here interacting with the EE's, and have learned a lot on the site.

Coupling is another interesting issue. There are two types of coupling, acoustic and mechanical. Mechanical coupling is the physical effect of a cab sitting on the floor. You really only have an issue with mechanical coupling when you have a hollow wooden stage, or if your cab is on the second story floor of a house, or whatever. Having wheels on your cab or using one of those 'cab isolation pads' can have an impact on isolating the cab from this physical coupling effect on a hollow floor. If you are on cement or whatever getting the cab a few inches off the floor or isolating it with a Gramma pad would have no effect.

Acoustic coupling is the 'distance' thing, and distance from walls, ceilings and floors each impact the performance of the cab. If I remember correctly, you don't start to impact the acoustical coupling effect of the floor until you move the cab up at least 20" or so. Of course, that also gets the more directional midrange pointing more directly at your ear, so the impact of acoustic coupling on the difference in perceived performance of a raised cab seems also overstated.

It is hard to isolate the impact of all this stuff when you have a complex system like a bass rig. When you then add in the different 'directionality' of sound based on frequency, things seem to get very non-linear and complex.

Again, while I do have a lot of training in experimental design and isolating causal influences in complex systems, the acoustic knowledge is based on my interactions with BillF, AlexClaber, Passinwind, and others on this site Most of what they have posted tends to explain what I'm hearing in the real world, which is very cool for me.

[Musicman20]

Originally Posted by KJung

So, in a way, these cabs (as good as I'm sure they are), are actually a compromise due to cost!

This is what I was thinking a while back, because of the neo prices. As much as they are no doubt fantastic, I want my Berg cabinets (when I FINALLY get them) to be neo loaded. If I have to wait a year or more for the AEs or another series to come back, what the heck, it doesnt matter, ill wait it out.

[Doug Parent]

The reemergence of heavier ceramics into the Berg lineup is a strong reason to consider stacking HD112's together vs the HD212, which I would not consider now that I have been spoiled by the weight savings of Neos.

But Tom's comments about the tone of the HD series reminds me of why for 4+ years I happily schlepped a HT115 and HT210 to gigs. The ceramics do sound a little better to me on the low end. However, like Ken I enjoy the upper midrange presence of the Neos and have grown to like particularly the tone profile of the AE112.

If Jim has upped the reach of the midrange response on the HD series, I say bravo.

Along with the usual reasons I am grateful at this time of year, this old fart can toast to still having the AE212/112 in my arsenal.

[alexclaber]

The acoustic coupling you get with boundaries such as the walls/floor/ceiling are with such long wavelengths at port frequencies that the coupling happens just the same whether the ports are on the top, side or back. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that you never get to compare two cabs which are identical bar the port location. And if a port is positioned so that midrange escapes through it then the port location will matter. But a well designed port that only emits low frequencies can go wherever. I'd worry much more about ports being big enough!

Despite that we put our ports on the front because it avoids this debate and you do get a bit more physical thump from them when you're standing close to your rig, which can be nice...

[jnewmark]

Originally Posted by KJung

I'm surely no expert, but spend much of my time here interacting with the EE's, and have learned a lot on the site.

Coupling is another interesting issue. There are two types of coupling, acoustic and mechanical. Mechanical coupling is the physical effect of a cab sitting on the floor. You really only have an issue with mechanical coupling when you have a hollow wooden stage, or if your cab is on the second story floor of a house, or whatever. Having wheels on your cab or using one of those 'cab isolation pads' can have an impact on isolating the cab from this physical coupling effect on a hollow floor. If you are on cement or whatever getting the cab a few inches off the floor or isolating it with a Gramma pad would have no effect.

Acoustic coupling is the 'distance' thing, and distance from walls, ceilings and floors each impact the performance of the cab. If I remember correctly, you don't start to impact the acoustical coupling effect of the floor until you move the cab up at least 20" or so. Of course, that also gets the more directional midrange pointing more directly at your ear, so the impact of acoustic coupling on the difference in perceived performance of a raised cab seems also overstated.

It is hard to isolate the impact of all this stuff when you have a complex system like a bass rig. When you then add in the different 'directionality' of sound based on frequency, things seem to get very non-linear and complex.

Again, while I do have a lot of training in experimental design and isolating causal influences in complex systems, the acoustic knowledge is based on my interactions with BillF, AlexClaber, Passinwind, and others on this site Most of what they have posted tends to explain what I'm hearing in the real world, which is very cool for me.

+1 to all of that. The reason why some think they lose low end when a cab is raised is not because they need the floor, but because they don't have ears behind their knees. Raising a cab 20 " does'nt lose low end; it's still there. More than 24" and then I believe you start to lose a little. But, you are hearing more of the mids and highs better when a cab is raised a little off the floor because it's closer to your ears, instead of blowing at your knees. There's a tendency to think you've lost the low end because you hearing the other frequencies better.

[nordyboy]

I was considering the HD212 but have just picked up a totally mint HT/ER stack, I am not sure of the science behind it but to my ears the Berg ceramic cabs that I have owned sound smoother and more solid than the neo's.
I would be very interested in the difference between the HT/ER and the HD seris, should be able to compare in next 2 weeks I hope.
Currently trying to decide between shuttlemax 9.2 and streamliner 900, may end up with both!! any thoughts???

[J.Wolf]

Originally Posted by alexclaber

we put our ports on the front because it avoids this debate and you do get a bit more physical thump from them when you're standing close to your rig

I'm unclear how you can say that port placement makes no difference regarding tone/performance, and then say what is quoted above. Maybe its placebo effect?

[J.Wolf]

Originally Posted by nordyboy

I was considering the HD212 but have just picked up a totally mint HT/ER stack, I am not sure of the science behind it but to my ears the Berg ceramic cabs that I have owned sound smoother and more solid than the neo's.
I would be very interested in the difference between the HT/ER and the HD seris, should be able to compare in next 2 weeks I hope.
Currently trying to decide between shuttlemax 9.2 and streamliner 900, may end up with both!! any thoughts???

Jefe would be a good guy to ask about the STM900 and Berg HT/ER stack. IIRC he ran that rig for a time.

[murphy]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

I'm unclear how you can say that port placement makes no difference regarding tone/performance, and then say what is quoted above. Maybe its placebo effect?

Haha...I was going to say exactly the same thing.
Well, in my experience I have found rear ported cabs more finicky to get a sound that I like...depending where they sit from a wall.
I prefer my front ported cabs....I personally find the sound to be more consitent........
I know...I've been told that is crazy, but that is part of my decision in which cabs I buy.
A local bass player retailer also finds he has the same experience....and tries many brands of cabs through work..
So, some of us do prefer the sound of front ports

[Jefe]

NEVER ARGUE WITH SCIENCE!!!!! No one cares what you hear, only what the graphs and charts say! Your ear and personal experience is irrelevant!

Mods, this was just a sarcastic statement (sort of), please don't ban me, it's my own thread.
I'm posting from a mobile phone, otherwise I would include the appropriate smilies to indicate sarcasm (sort of).

[murphy]

haha...touche!!

[BartmanPDX]

Originally Posted by jnewmark

+1 to all of that. The reason why some think they lose low end when a cab is raised is not because they need the floor, but because they don't have ears behind their knees. Raising a cab 20 " does'nt lose low end; it's still there. More than 24" and then I believe you start to lose a little. But, you are hearing more of the mids and highs better when a cab is raised a little off the floor because it's closer to your ears, instead of blowing at your knees. There's a tendency to think you've lost the low end because you hearing the other frequencies better.

This.

People on this forum continually think differently, however, because they don't step out front and HEAR that there's no loss of low end in raising your cab. The ability to hear more of the other frequencies with the cab more closely on-axis with your ears gets perceived as a loss of low end, I guess.

I wouldn't trade my AE212 for any cab on the market. I was able to play a gig Saturday despite having back spasms on the Tuesday prior and spending the next few days laid up. I was still able to carry that cab in my condition.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by murphy

Haha...I was going to say exactly the same thing.
Well, in my experience I have found rear ported cabs more finicky to get a sound that I like...depending where they sit from a wall.
I prefer my front ported cabs....I personally find the sound to be more consitent........
I know...I've been told that is crazy, but that is part of my decision in which cabs I buy.
A local bass player retailer also finds he has the same experience....and tries many brands of cabs through work..
So, some of us do prefer the sound of front ports

Actually, some of you prefer the sound of some cabs that happen to have front ports

Edit: Not trying to change those who have various opinions about this, but just trying to make sure readers of the thread realize that port placement should really have no weight in purchasing a cab. That doesn't mean that you won't hate any particular rear ported cab. Just don't attribute how a cab behaves in poor acoustic situations to the arbitrary location of the ports.

[alexclaber]

Once you're more than about 1' away from the cab then there's no difference in feel and regardless of distance what your ears hear is the same. But if you can fit the ports on the front then you can save a lot of energy trying to explain why the sound doesn't change.

Like everything in engineering, it's never really that simple - but in an attempt to help the layman understand it is simplified but doing so brings its own risks. And then trying to fill in the details (like the thump of air hitting your legs) risks causing further misunderstanding!

Jefe - use your ears! But don't trust them blindly - both acoustics and psychoacoustics will otherwise trip you up...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

I'm unclear how you can say that port placement makes no difference regarding tone/performance, and then say what is quoted above. Maybe its placebo effect?

He said 'physical thump', which just means when you are standing very close to the cab, you can feel the air being pushed out of the port. It has nothing to do with tone nor performance.

[J.Wolf]

Originally Posted by KJung

He said 'physical thump', which just means when you are standing very close to the cab, you can feel the air being pushed out of the port. It has nothing to do with tone nor performance.

I hear you Ken.

I don't know about you, but on my gigs, 90% of the time I have no choice but to stand a foot away from my cabs on cramped bar "stages".

Also, I may be alone in my consideration of "physical thump" as a tonal quality, not merely a physical one, but I doubt it. I mean, how many times have you heard a bassist use the word thump when discussing the tone of their gear?


Either way, my part in this discussion is not only OT, but useless in the sense that you arent going to convince me that my consistently personal experience is bogus/placebo, and I'm not going to convince you that rear ported cabs sound/feel/act different.

[speyer]

Originally Posted by J.Wolf

Haha, cool, placebo it is.

I also believe that tolex cabs sound more vintage than carpeted ones, and black basses have a darker sound, so go figure.

LOL... nice

[speyer]

Like many others, I've played front and rear ported cabs. The only caveat I can find with either is that when a small front ported cab is pushed to it's limits and the port chuffs... you can hear it. It's my experience that when the air chuffs out of the port and through the grill, the overall tone suffers and the result sounds kinda 'farty' My old Berg IP112 did this all the time (and others)... but only when I used it stand-alone and in loud contexts, which happened to be most of the time. If that cab had a rear port would it sound different? My humble opinion is - yes it would.

Because of this, I now prefer small single driver cabs to be rear ported. IMO, the 'port chuff' I experienced would not be present if the port was on the back of the cab, with no grill in front of it etc, etc.

I understand that this isn't exactly what we are talking about here and that its not relavent with regard to every cab. So, with all things being equal except port location on two well designed cabs driven to max volumes... I agree, there is no perceivable difference in port location. Also, my rear ported 212 is not sensitive to room location at all. I have put it tight into corners etc, and it reacts the same as any of my front ported cabs. Pretty sure you would literally have to put it tight against the wall (ie: plug the port) for it to make a perceivable difference.

[SactoBass]

I feel kinda bad for Jefe. His intent was to have a thread devoted to discussing the HD212 cab, and much of this thread has derailed into a discussion about port location and design (regardless of cab brand).

Sorry Jefe!

Maybe the ship will steer back on course soon and then stay on course.