Bergantino Comparisons

[Infa Red]

Ok, if any of you followed and helped in my other thread, this (and another one) are new threads which are focused versions of that one, but narrowed down to streamline the answers I get.

Thanks to all that helped me narrow my decisions down to 2 Cab makers (later I plan to do a custom one with 2 3012HO's, but thats another time and thread - first will be my manufactured cab).

So what I plan to do is start 2 different threads (both running now), focusing questions on comparing a couple different cabs/series in one manufacture.

(Usage: 1972 Ampeg SVT Blueline, recording mainly - yes I know, I'm barely going past volume 2-3 - lol, but I love the tone, splitting signal, one direct in, one mic'ed cab - combined in mix down, session bassist, me thats a rookie bassist, fingerstyle player, some tasteful slapping, clean, clear, punch, no mud, defined, not boomy, but still round and fat, sometimes bit of growl, you get the idea.)

So, for BERGANTINO and a SADOWSKY:

With the above described amp head, and approach, what kind of tonalities, texture and general sound can I expect from:

1- Bergantino HS410

2- Bergantino AE410

3- Sadowsky SA410 (used obviously, and is it even worth it?)

IF I do decide to go with Bergantino, which of the above would be best for me and my described set up and approach ? And please explain why.

What are the main differences between them 3 ?

Thanks so much !!

[Scott McArron]

From your description, I'd hit up the HS410 or the Sadowsky. While I loved the AE410, it has some inherent upper midrange that is great for cutting live, but, IMO, doesn't have that low round juicy fatness that I crave, especially with tube driven heads. Just my opinion! And of the two, I'd go HS410, but haven't heard the Sadowsky in person. Is that Ampeg all tube? Don't know my Ampegs that well anymore...

[Fuzzbass]

I own a pair of HS210 cabs, and used to own the Sadowsky SA410. The Sadowsky cab was specifically designed for tube heads. It's less efficient than the HS cabs, but if you don't need to knock down walls then it's probably a better choice for that wonderful vintage SVT of yours.

Both are outstanding choices. I think you'll be happy either way. Oh... I didn't comment on the AE because I've never tried one, but from what I've read about it I believe that Scott is right on the money: it probably isn't what you're looking for (me, neither).

[Alexander]

Sorry if this is slightly off topic (since you didn't mention these specifically), but with an SVT, I really think you should at least give an NV series cab a spin. Would meet all of the tone goals you have listed above. I run my SVT 2Pro with an NV412 and it absolutely kills. I can imagine the NV610 would be similar goodness - a punchier cab in my limited time A\Bing the two while the 412 is a tad wider and more even.

[murphy]

I owned the SA410 and I did not have a tube head.
While it was wonderful in small clubs, it did not suit well my non tube head in bigger situations.....lacking low end projection. I was not using it for its' intended purpose.
As you have a tube head, I think it would be a wonderful match up.
Very tight and punchy.

[Infa Red]

Excellent !! Right on for all the help dudes --

Originally Posted by Scott McArron

From your description, I'd hit up the HS410 or the Sadowsky. While I loved the AE410, it has some inherent upper midrange that is great for cutting live, but, IMO, doesn't have that low round juicy fatness that I crave, especially with tube driven heads. Just my opinion! And of the two, I'd go HS410, but haven't heard the Sadowsky in person. Is that Ampeg all tube? Don't know my Ampegs that well anymore...

Ok, cool descriptions and break downs... I'm taking this all in. Yes from what I believe (no techy and I always take it to a tech when need be) my SVT has 14 tubes !! Thats all tube brother. You couldn't fit another tube in this beast.

Originally Posted by Fuzzbass

I own a pair of HS210 cabs, and used to own the Sadowsky SA410. The Sadowsky cab was specifically designed for tube heads. It's less efficient than the HS cabs, but if you don't need to knock down walls then it's probably a better choice for that wonderful vintage SVT of yours.

Both are outstanding choices. I think you'll be happy either way. Oh... I didn't comment on the AE because I've never tried one, but from what I've read about it I believe that Scott is right on the money: it probably isn't what you're looking for (me, neither).

Got you, ok, so sounds like the Sadowsky is really a good bet here. Also, seems like as great as it is, the AE might be out for me in particular ?

Originally Posted by Alexander

Sorry if this is slightly off topic (since you didn't mention these specifically), but with an SVT, I really think you should at least give an NV series cab a spin. Would meet all of the tone goals you have listed above. I run my SVT 2Pro with an NV412 and it absolutely kills. I can imagine the NV610 would be similar goodness - a punchier cab in my limited time A\Bing the two while the 412 is a tad wider and more even.

DUDE !! Very good point. I don't know why I didn't see the NV series there before. Hmmm, sounds cool. I say my only prob with it is it don't got enough highs ? No tweeter ? The other cabs specs are at 15-16k on the high end response. That NV is down there to only 4.5k. That might not do it for my cup of tea. But IDK ? Still open to thoughts and debates about that one. Either way, good point, the NV is now on my thought possibility list -- So others please use it in the comparison

Originally Posted by murphy

I owned the SA410 and I did not have a tube head.
While it was wonderful in small clubs, it did not suit well my non tube head in bigger situations.....lacking low end projection. I was not using it for its' intended purpose.
As you have a tube head, I think it would be a wonderful match up.
Very tight and punchy.

Hmmm, very good points here. For recording, I don't need loud. And it sounds like it literally was designed for tube heads.... So another vote for Sadowsky 410 -- Looks like 3 to 1 so far for Sadowsky. And the arguments on it are very believing. (or the HS)

[Illinimax]

Just had the opportunity to try most of the Berg cabs last week. Ended up buying the AE112 and plan to get another. Planned on getting the AE410 ... try before you buy if at all possible.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by Infa Red

DUDE !! Very good point. I don't know why I didn't see the NV series there before. Hmmm, sounds cool. I say my only prob with it is it don't got enough highs ? No tweeter ? The other cabs specs are at 15-16k on the high end response. That NV is down there to only 4.5k. That might not do it for my cup of tea. But IDK ? Still open to thoughts and debates about that one. Either way, good point, the NV is now on my thought possibility list -- So others please use it in the comparison

The NV610 is my favorite cab bar none! The only reason I didn't mention it was because I'd assumed that you'd ruled it out... too big, perhaps.

I like bright aggressive tubey tone and the NV610 does that just fine. It'll go above 4kHz if you boost treble. If you really need that sizzly top end that only comes from a tweeter then it won't work for you, but don't think that it's a dark cabinet simply because it doesn't have a tweeter. It can get extremely bright, especially with an active bass.

[kdel]

I only have in-store experience of comparing the Bergantino HS410 to the AE410 (with an EA iAmp), but based on that I would say that my biggest surprise was that the lighter Neo AE had the better low end. They are both excellent cabinets with a lot of punch, but the AE seemed to be smoother and more consistent top to bottom and therefore better sounding overall to me. However, the HS had more punch to it in the mid- low-mid area. When thumping the E and A strings with my thumb the HS was astoundingly punchy, better than the AE. Of course, this is a limited experience; showroom reality is not bandstand reality, and in my time I was limited to a single amp which has its own sound. As always, your goals, taste, instrument and amp would vary, but within the limits of that experience the AE wins for my ears on sound alone, and being 20+ lbs. lighter seals it for me. I am waiting to hear what two AE 112s sound like.

[Illinimax]

Originally Posted by kdel

I only have in-store experience of comparing the Bergantino HS410 to the AE410 (with an EA iAmp), but based on that I would say that my biggest surprise was that the lighter Neo AE had the better low end. They are both excellent cabinets with a lot of punch, but the AE seemed to be smoother and more consistent top to bottom and therefore better sounding overall to me. However, the HS had more punch to it in the mid- low-mid area. When thumping the E and A strings with my thumb the HS was astoundingly punchy, better than the AE. Of course, this is a limited experience; showroom reality is not bandstand reality, and in my time I was limited to a single amp which has its own sound. As always, your goals, taste, instrument and amp would vary, but within the limits of that experience the AE wins for my ears on sound alone, and being 20+ lbs. lighter seals it for me. I am waiting to hear what two AE 112s sound like.

Exactly what I heard when comparing the AE to the HS series. Two AE112s was the set-up that sounded ideal for me.

[Infa Red]

Originally Posted by Illinimax

Just had the opportunity to try most of the Berg cabs last week. Ended up buying the AE112 and plan to get another. Planned on getting the AE410 ... try before you buy if at all possible.

Totally agree !! Listening in person under real life scenario is a game changer compared to what your mind usually bakes up. I will be trying my hardest to listen to/try every cab I can in person... but narrowing the field that I want to try first will make that goal more possible.

Originally Posted by Fuzzbass

The NV610 is my favorite cab bar none! The only reason I didn't mention it was because I'd assumed that you'd ruled it out... too big, perhaps.

I like bright aggressive tubey tone and the NV610 does that just fine. It'll go above 4kHz if you boost treble. If you really need that sizzly top end that only comes from a tweeter then it won't work for you, but don't think that it's a dark cabinet simply because it doesn't have a tweeter. It can get extremely bright, especially with an active bass.

It is too big, BUT there is a NV410 in which I could go for, but thats what I meant, I didn't see it at first. SO now wondering if it should be added to the "try outs"/"comparison" advice I get from you guys.

But yea, 610 has to be out. No reason for that with recording mainly. 410's at most, or I'd just go for a old school Ampeg sealed 810 that was meant for my head. Trying to cut down size in the studio and still use my head (best head of all time) is all. And honestly, while I'm at it, hopefully even dial in a better sound than 8 frickin 10's blaring in a microphone. Cause IMO they really were designed for stage performances.

[murphy]

I believe you would be very happy with the Sadowsky

[tombowlus]

The AE cabs do go very deep, and they definitely showed me what neodymium drivers are capable of. That being said, though, when it comes to matching up with an all-tube head, I think that the HS, NV, or SA cabs are a better option.

Those Sadowsky cabs were designed to be used with tube amps, and the drivers have stiffer "spiders." This does mean that they don't put out as much low end (especially when using a solid state head), but with a big, fat tube head, that tightness down low equals more control and less slop at higher volumes. This may be less valuable, though, if you are only going to be using this cab in a studio environment at lower volume. I did find that the mids on the SA410 have a bit more texture and "grit" relative to the HS410.

The HS cabs definitely hold up just fine with tube heads, and don't have the same issues that the SA cabs have with solid state heads. They are a little less aggressive in the mids and more full in the low end relative to the SA410. The HS410 is a fairly balanced sounding 4x10, and it performs well with a variety of amplification options.

The NV series cabs were also definitely designed with tube heads in mind. They are sealed, and have enough internal volume to go pretty deep, despite the lack of porting. My favorite is still the NV215 (now discontinued - again!), but if you like the classic "Ampeg" tone, then the NV610 is definitely an option worth considering.

Hope this helps, Tom.

[Jerry J]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

The AE cabs do go very deep, and they definitely showed me what neodymium drivers are capable of. That being said, though, when it comes to matching up with an all-tube head, I think that the HS, NV, or SA cabs are a better option.

Those Sadowsky cabs were designed to be used with tube amps, and the drivers have stiffer "spiders." This does mean that they don't put out as much low end (especially when using a solid state head), but with a big, fat tube head, that tightness down low equals more control and less slop at higher volumes. This may be less valuable, though, if you are only going to be using this cab in a studio environment at lower volume. I did find that the mids on the SA410 have a bit more texture and "grit" relative to the HS410.

The HS cabs definitely hold up just fine with tube heads, and don't have the same issues that the SA cabs have with solid state heads. They are a little less aggressive in the mids and more full in the low end relative to the SA410. The HS410 is a fairly balanced sounding 4x10, and it performs well with a variety of amplification options.

The NV series cabs were also definitely designed with tube heads in mind. They are sealed, and have enough internal volume to go pretty deep, despite the lack of porting. My favorite is still the NV215 (now discontinued - again!), but if you like the classic "Ampeg" tone, then the NV610 is definitely an option worth considering.

Hope this helps, Tom.

Reviving a nearly old thread...

So would the SA410 sound decent with an Aggie DB750? It seems that it would be right up the 750's alley.

Also, just curious how anyone thinks the SA410 would sound with a Mesa M6?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by kdel

I only have in-store experience of comparing the Bergantino HS410 to the AE410 (with an EA iAmp), but based on that I would say that my biggest surprise was that the lighter Neo AE had the better low end. They are both excellent cabinets with a lot of punch, but the AE seemed to be smoother and more consistent top to bottom and therefore better sounding overall to me. However, the HS had more punch to it in the mid- low-mid area. When thumping the E and A strings with my thumb the HS was astoundingly punchy, better than the AE. Of course, this is a limited experience; showroom reality is not bandstand reality, and in my time I was limited to a single amp which has its own sound. As always, your goals, taste, instrument and amp would vary, but within the limits of that experience the AE wins for my ears on sound alone, and being 20+ lbs. lighter seals it for me. I am waiting to hear what two AE 112s sound like.

Exactly. I wouldn't call it 'better' low end, but rather the cab is just voiced to go a touch deeper. As Tom and I have alluded to, the HS cab is a slight tweak of the discontinued SA cabs (the tweak involved loosing up the surrounds on the drivers so that the low end extended a touch more, versus the very tight, almost 'sealed' sort of tone of the SA's, which were designed for the Sadowsky Tube amp).

The HS's are all about low mid punch and tightness, with a smooth upper mid response. The AE's are more about a bit more extended low end, and a lot of upper mid grind.

Both are great, but different enough that most would have a clear preference.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

The AE cabs do go very deep, and they definitely showed me what neodymium drivers are capable of

While I am an AE fan boy at this point, I find the AE's actually extend less in the deep low end than some other neo loaded cabs I own, and have that bright, upper midrange bump that, until very recently, was a hallmark of neo loaded speaker cabs.

+1 to the rest of you post though. There was quite a bit of hyperbole involving the AE's when they came out regarding 'finally a neo cab that doesn't sound neo'. I couldn't disagree more with that, but I love them non-the-less!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jerry J

Reviving a nearly old thread...

So would the SA410 sound decent with an Aggie DB750? It seems that it would be right up the 750's alley.

Also, just curious how anyone thinks the SA410 would sound with a Mesa M6?

The SA410 (if you can find one) is one of the only cabs that the DB750 does sound good with

Seriously though, it is a GREAT match-up. I'm sure it would sound great with the M6 also, which is also voiced deep in the lows and polite in the low mids with minimum EQ control of the low mids.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by KJung

While I am an AE fan boy at this point, I find the AE's actually extend less in the deep low end than some other neo loaded cabs I own, and have that bright, upper midrange bump that, until very recently, was a hallmark of neo loaded speaker cabs.

Interesting. I hear them as going as deep, or deeper, on the very low notes as just about any other similarly configured cabs I compare them against (neo or ceramic), but I definitely hear a thinner/tighter low-midrange (maybe even "upper low end" if that makes any sense) out of the AE's.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Jerry J

Reviving a nearly old thread...

So would the SA410 sound decent with an Aggie DB750? It seems that it would be right up the 750's alley.

Also, just curious how anyone thinks the SA410 would sound with a Mesa M6?

The SA410 really, really shines with the DB750! And it is pretty darned good with the M6, as well. I do goose the low end up a bit with the M6, but the SA410 can certainly handle it. The AE410, though, is a very "natural" match with the M6, too.

[SFjonstarr]

Have any of you guys tried a tube head with the Ex112 by itself? It seems from the specs that it's voiced similar to the NVs in the top end. It would appear be easier to record with and can handle 350 watts RMS which is plenty to handle an SVT. Not that I plan on giving up my Nv428, but I've been thinking about this setup for recording purposes lately. It would have no crossover artifacts (not that he doesn't do a great job with them), one speaker to capture with a mic, and ease of adjusting its room positioning to get the sound you want if not just close micing.