Bergantino or Phil Jones

[LowRoller]

I am looking to replace my Acme Low B equipment, which consist of two 4-10 cabs and a 2-10 for small venues. I currently use a Phil Jones Neo 8B in place of the 2-10 Acme but need something larger for bigger venues.
I have narrowed down my search to either the Bergantino HD410 or the Phil Jones 18-B. If someone has used one or both I would love to get some opinions regarding the pluses and minuses besides the weight,(88lbs).
If it matters I use either Alembic F-1X preamps with QSC PLX power amps or I use a Genz Benz Streamliner 900.

[Munjibunga]

Bergantino. I've heard some of the Jones stuff, and I guess it's OK. The HD410 dominates, though.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by LowRoller

I am looking to replace my Acme Low B equipment, which consist of two 4-10 cabs and a 2-10 for small venues. I currently use a Phil Jones Neo 8B in place of the 2-10 Acme but need something larger for bigger venues.
I have narrowed down my search to either the Bergantino HD410 or the Phil Jones 18-B. If someone has used one or both I would love to get some opinions regarding the pluses and minuses besides the weight,(88lbs).
If it matters I use either Alembic F-1X preamps with QSC PLX power amps or I use a Genz Benz Streamliner 900.

Man, the Phil Jones stuff is just SO different sounding from the Acme. I am not a fan at all, but if you dig your 8B, just get another one, or one of the larger Neo Jones cabs. You have the advantage of knowing how the Jones neo stuff sounds (I wouldn't wish the weight to performance ratio of the non neo Jones stuff on anyone!).

The Bergantino HD410 is mid present, punchy, and will sound louder with the same power than your Acme 410x2 stack, but with MUCH less low end extension (there is no free lunch with these different designs). So, much more slam than either the Jones cabs or the Acme's, but not nearly the massive, huge, deep low end extension of that massive Acme stack with that massive power you are putting into it. To my ear, the voicing of the HD410 is MADE for that Alembic pre. It is a modern ported 410 that has SOME of the tonal characteristics of a sealed multi-10 cab... punchy, tight, controlled down low, low mid present, smooth up top with just a touch of driver grind when really pushed. Magnificent cab, but a massive change from the huge low end of the Acme stack.

Regarding Bergantino in general, of the current offerings, the HD212 would probably make you the most happy coming from the Acme world... deeper and less punchy than the HD410, and LOTS of slam. A bit smaller also as a bonus. REALLY nice box, if a bit heavy compared to the neo stuff I use.

IF you really want to keep some of the Acme tonal profile in a lighter rig, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at the fEARful cabs. Greenboy's design goal was to basically 'improve' on the Acme performance by using more mechanically heavy duty drivers and slightly reducing the low end response, while keeping the 'good parts' (the mid driver design which allows for a nice, even upper mid response and also allows the use of a more subwoofer type driver for the main guts of the cab.

The 1515/66 would be about the same weight as a single Acme410, and would EASILY keep up with your Acme 2 x 410 stack, with BIG low end that is easier to control, and a brighter top end (the 1212/6 would most likely get you there also in a bit smaller box). I would recommend the variable crossover option that would allow you to get the more organic/polite/relaxed top end of the Acme versus the inherent bright, aggressive upper mids of the stock fEARful if you choose to. The fEARful 15/6 would probably be all you would need for most applications, or you could get a fEARful 12/6 for smaller gigs and the 1515/66 for the monster gigs, etc. Lots of options. Another popular one is a 15/6 with a 15 sub to add for the big ones.

The fEARfuls 'scale up and down' just as well as the Acme's (i.e., just like the Acme 210 sounds identical to the Acme410, the fEARfuls scale perfectly also, varying primarily in volume and not changing tone from the large to smaller models).

I don't recommend the fEARful builds for 'everything' like some others, but for an Acme lover looking to lighten the load, they are a no brainer IMO. There are a few TBers who are authorized fEARful builders and who do a great job. Do a search.

[KJung]

I'm on a roll I am a former Acme owner, so hopefully can provide some helpful ideas for you. One other one, since you have a power amp that cab do 4ohms per side (i.e., functionally handle a 2ohm nominal impedance).

IF you are just in love with your Acme's and your primary reason for moving on is weight, Andy now makes new neo 112 versions of his cabs that are relatively lightweight and have all that deep low end of the original 10" loaded models. The Fullrange is tweeter loaded, the Flatwound is not. So, a fullrange/flatwound stack would give you IMO about the performance of a single Acme 410. If you were an Acme fanatic and wanted a fully modular rig, two flatwounds and two fullrange 112's (all in 8ohm versions) would pretty much get you there in a reasonably lightweight, modular version of your current rig.

Just food for thought.

Edit: A nice place to get very detailed info on the Acme neo 12's and the fEARful cabs is the online version of Bass Gear Magazine. The online version is free, and the magazine is run by TBer Tom Bowlus. They have done detailed reviews of both of these cab lines, and while there is a ton of info on these cabs on TB mega threads, it is a bit easier to just peruse the relatively short reviews and technical tests in that magazine.

[CL400Peavey]

I would definitely check out greenboy's designs. Here is a map of users. Most of us will let you piss off our neighbors for a beer or two.

If you dig what you hear from local cabs there are two big cabs that I would look into. A fEARful 1515/66 (mine is 105lbs with the tweeter), or a fEARless 215 (around 75lbs depending on options). Both are going to be ~2-3 db more sensitive than two LB410's. So you get louder with less power, and since the power handling is equal if not greater you have a big increase in volume. The lows wont be quite as extended as the acme's but they are still incredible.

[MKA]

Question:

Originally Posted by LowRoller

I am looking to replace my Acme Low B equipment, which consist of two 4-10 cabs and a 2-10 for small venues. I currently use a Phil Jones Neo 8B in place of the 2-10 Acme but need something larger for bigger venues.
I have narrowed down my search to either the Bergantino HD410 or the Phil Jones 18-B. If someone has used one or both I would love to get some opinions regarding the pluses and minuses besides the weight,(88lbs).
If it matters I use either Alembic F-1X preamps with QSC PLX power amps or I use a Genz Benz Streamliner 900.

Answer:

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

I would definitely check out greenboy's designs. Here is a map of users. Most of us will let you piss off our neighbors for a beer or two.

If you dig what you hear from local cabs there are two big cabs that I would look into. A fEARful 1515/66 (mine is 105lbs with the tweeter), or a fEARless 215 (around 75lbs depending on options). Both are going to be ~2-3 db more sensitive than two LB410's. So you get louder with less power, and since the power handling is equal if not greater you have a big increase in volume. The lows wont be quite as extended as the acme's but they are still incredible.

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[KJung]

Originally Posted by MKA

Question:



Answer:



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I think he was just responding to my 'you might consider a few other things also' response to the OP's original request. No harm, no foul IMO.

The OP might not be aware that, for example, Andy of Acme now makes lighter cabs, or that there is a Bergantino model that is IMO a bit closer to the Acme thing than the HD410, and also that there is a whole line of cabs that evolve the Acme design to a lighter, more sensitive format.

[MKA]

Originally Posted by KJung

I think he was just responding to my 'you might consider a few other things also' response to the OP's original request. No harm, no foul IMO.

The OP might not be aware that, for example, Andy of Acme now makes lighter cabs, or that there is a Bergantino model that is IMO a bit closer to the Acme thing than the HD410, and also that there is a whole line of cabs that evolve the Acme design to a lighter, more sensitive format.

Ok, sorry, didn't see that. It's just a shame that every cab thread turns out to be a fEARful thread at some point, even though the OP has a specific question and says that he has done his research.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MKA

Ok, sorry, didn't see that. It's just a shame that every cab thread turns out to be a fEARful thread at some point, even though the OP has a specific question and says that he has done his research.

I am guilty of that this time. While I too find some of the fEARful guys recommend those cabs to every person for every situation, which does get a bit old and is not IMO particularly helpful, in this case (i.e., a player digging the Acme vibe but wanting to update a bit to a lighter box), the fEARful thing is spot on (possibly... at least worth considering).

Again, I'll take the hit for the fEARful derail this time

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by MKA

Ok, sorry, didn't see that. It's just a shame that every cab thread turns out to be a fEARful thread at some point, even though the OP has a specific question and says that he has done his research.

No need to ones manties in a twist. The OP is looking for a lighter solution that may cop the vibe he wants. I suggested he check out some cabs near to him. They may or may not be his cupotea, the ACMEs are certainly do not fit everyone either.

[nordyboy]

I have owned and gigged a Bergantino HS 410 which is the predecessor to the HD 410 and it is one hell of a beast.
The low end is thick and punchy, the highs are clear and defined. I sold it because of its weight (the HD 410 is even heavier) but it is to this day one of my favorite sounding cabs.
The HD 212 and the Baer ML112 are my others.
You would be suprised at how close the HD 410 sounds to the HD212, when I purchased the HD212 I played it off against the HD 410, the 212 was deeper and thicker sounding.
Both sound stupid loud with a Shuttle 9.2 on top, you may find that the Streamliner that you are using is a bit warm for the 212, unless of course you are handy with the eq, it would probably benefit from some low mid and bass taking out to even up the tone, might work better with the 410 i suspect...
Ken was wise to raise the HD 212 as a suggestion, it is an awesome cab and would be my choice of the two.
If you are happy with the weight then go Berg, Jim makes some of the finest gear available, You cannot go wrong with it

[countrybass007]

As a Phil Jones neo user, that would be my choice. My rig uses 18 PJB neos, and it sounds great and works for any big venues.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by countrybass007

As a Phil Jones neo user, that would be my choice. My rig uses 18 PJB neos, and it sounds great and works for any big venues.

+1 in that the Phil Jones cabs should scale nicely also. So,if the OP digs his current small neo PJ cab, then getting a second one or a larger model will give him 'more of what he likes already' in a reasonably small and lightweight package.

[LowRoller]

Okay Gentlemen a lot of good information and advice here. I guess I should have stated that weight is not the primary reason for me moving to a different cab.
What I used to love about my Acme cabs seems to no longer be appealing. The sub lows are now a little over the top for most of what I do. I am looking for more articulation at low volumes while maintaining warmth.
I dig how my Phil Jones handles the crossover of the high register without making me sound like I am playing two different instruments. When I tried the Bergantino it gave me that same vibe, very even across the tonal spectrum. I am not sure if what I hear in my Phil Jones 8B will translate into something bigger from him. Thought I would ask here before I took the plunge.
I no longer worry about volume so that is not an issue. I am really looking to downsize some of my gear while searching for that ever elusive tone. Thanks to all that have responded you have given me more to think about.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by LowRoller

Okay Gentlemen a lot of good information and advice here. I guess I should have stated that weight is not the primary reason for me moving to a different cab.
What I used to love about my Acme cabs seems to no longer be appealing. The sub lows are now a little over the top for most of what I do. I am looking for more articulation at low volumes while maintaining warmth.
I dig how my Phil Jones handles the crossover of the high register without making me sound like I am playing two different instruments. When I tried the Bergantino it gave me that same vibe, very even across the tonal spectrum. I am not sure if what I hear in my Phil Jones 8B will translate into something bigger from him. Thought I would ask here before I took the plunge.
I no longer worry about volume so that is not an issue. I am really looking to downsize some of my gear while searching for that ever elusive tone. Thanks to all that have responded you have given me more to think about.

I that case, it would be the Bergantino HD212. Jim's crossovers have always been among the best in the business. Very transparent and smooth transition between the driver and tweeter. Nice!

[echoSE7EN]

There's a Berg HD410 in the classifieds...

[GM60466]

I love my Phil Jones. Not one problem with this amp.

[LowRoller]

I would like to thank everyone for chiming in with solid recommendations. I just received my Bergantino HD212 and it is great! It is just what I was looking to go with in a little larger cab than my Phil Jones Neo8B. For those of you wondering, I still love my Phil Jones and it will see the grunt of the work that I do but the Bergantino will transition nicely to larger venues that I play.
Since the advent of 10 inch speakers I have used nothing else and felt that was the only way to go but boy have I changed my way of thinking. One cabinet has 5 inch speakers and the other has twelve inch speakers and I don't feel like I am missing a thing with either. Don't get me wrong I still appreciate 10 inch speakers but I now let my ears do the listening instead of my ever failing eyes! Once again thanks for all the great recommendations.

[nordyboy]

Hey glad that you are sorted and enjoying your new toy, tonally it is just amazing, I still miss mine from time to time

[Kopfjaeger]

Outstanding!! I'm toying with purchasing the Bergantino 212 cab! Not that I need a nudge to do so, by the way!!

Sepp