Best 1x15 for deep low end on an F#-tuned six string?

[slauf]

Hi all,

I play an Ibanez BTB 6 string tuned F# - B - etc.

I'm looking for an inexpensive 1x15 cab that can deal with the low frequencies (F# open is about 25Hz, though realistically I'm looking for a good response from 30Hz up).
Essentially I want a cab that will deliver the fundamental, not just second and third harmonics, on those low strings.
Need at least 200W power handling.

After visiting Guitar Center, the verdict was:

• GK Neo iii 1x15 - got most of the way there, and useable alone due to the horn

• Acoustic 1x15 - delivered some of the low end, but sounded dull, like cardboard

• Markbass 1x15 - deepest lows but overly dark without something on top

• SWR 1x15 - A cheater. Had plenty of mid-bass punch at around 50-60Hz, compensating for having very little response below that.

Can anyone comment on these other cabs I wanted to try but are not in stock?

• Hartke HX 1x15

• Hartke TP 1x15

• GK MBE 1x15

• Seismic Audio 1x15

Thanks in advance.

[bongomania]

Actually not ONE of those cabs would actually deliver much of a 30 Hz fundamental. Anything you hear that low, from a commercial bass cab, is composed of upper harmonics and "brain magic". When cab makers advertise a range extending below 45 Hz, they are usually fudging or outright lying.

There are exceptions. Bag End with the ELF system, or Acme, maybe a few others.

Fortunately for you, there is usually no need to be bothered by this, as in most cases the "brain magic" is entirely adequate, and the lowest frequencies would just be mud in a typical stage/PA mix.

But if you are in the camp of exceptions, people who really honestly NEED those frequencies for artistic expression or personal satisfaction, then check out the Acme and Bag End systems.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

+1 to what bongomania said.


200W, LOL.

Try 2000W and still You won't get there with the fundamental that low.

That said, I used HK115.

NO WAY it'd go that low, but it tightened up the low end to some extent. Enough to gig with that tuning.

Regards
Sam

[canadian*eh]

I will Say this Once and Then Shut up!!!....fEARful 15/6!!!

[MysticMichael]

So many unarticulated assumptions here...

What leads you to believe that a 1x15 is the best configuration to get you to where you think you want to go? If this was the year 1975, I would say a good 1x18 folded horn would probably get you the closest - but would still leave you far short. But cab & speaker engineering has come a long, long way since then...

Hint: These days, it's all about the cab design and the quality of the components. The size of the speaker(s) has very little to do with it.

Personally, I can scarcely make out the tonality of any note lower than a low "B", or a detuned low "A" at the very lowest. A low "F#" just sounds like mush.

But if you are determined to proceed, the Accugroove Bill Dickens 2x12 is reputed to do the job. Just be sure to bring big, big power to the job. Likewise the Bag End ELF system. Not so much the Acme, which is designed to function down to 30 Hz - but no lower.

These ultra-deep subterranean bass systems tend to be complex, expensive, sometimes bulky...and to do them full justice, require A LOT of power. Hope you're up to it...

MM

[Ric5]

I would go with a 1x18 and a 2x10 setup.

[Stan Laurel]

Don't see too many people tuning down to F#. I play a Conklin GT7 with a low F#. Even most 18" sub woofers are rated at around 30 Hz. F# is 23.1246 Hz based on A 440 and 12th root of 2 method. I think the "brain magic" is the ticket. I usually play through my church sound system and the low A's and G's sound reasonably well.

[ghiadub]

Have you considered trying an 18" PA sub? you could probibly pick one up from CL on the cheap.

[slauf]

Thanks bongomania - I appreciate it. Too many years of training as an audio engineer unfortunately got rid of most of the brain magic for me. I'd be lying if I pretended I could pick the fundamentals all the way down, but I know a 30Hz sine wave when it hits me in the face.

Clearly what I don't know is enough about speaker design, after being preached to all afternoon at Guitar Center about how only a 1x15 (or 1x18, yes) could do this job.
I don't need high volume - maybe I should be thinking of other size configurations.

If Acmes can get close to 30Hz then that's good enough for me. There is a Low B-2 near me for $400; is that reasonable?

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by slauf

Clearly what I don't know is enough about speaker design, after being preached to all afternoon at Guitar Center about how only a 1x15 (or 1x18, yes) could do this job.

The problem there was you were taking advice from a clerk at GC!!! 99% of them know jack **** about speaker design truth from fiction.

Originally Posted by slauf

I don't need high volume - maybe I should be thinking of other size configurations.

In truth, you should keep an open mind to all size configs, because even 5" speakers (a'la Phil Jones) can be utilized for deep low end. It starts with the speaker design, but the cab design is what "makes it".

Originally Posted by slauf

If Acmes can get close to 30Hz then that's good enough for me. There is a Low B-2 near me for $400; is that reasonable?

If it's in good shape and not old, yes--they sell for $609 new.

[LowBstring]

you don't want a big speaker for that, you want a PJPS cab. They have one that goes down to 20 Hz (the 16H). Expensive, but in my experience, worth it.

[wcriley]

Early in the evolution of the fEARfuls, Greenboy designed a cab specifically for extended range bass. I think it was called the fEaRB or something like that. I don't have time to look it up right now. He may have dropped it from his list of plans due to lack of interest.

Check Greenboy's forum. I think there's a discussion there between him and Skip (Knucklehead Guitars) about reproducing a low F#.

[billfitzmaurice]

Avatar 153. What you need isn't lower extension, it's longer driver xmax. The 3015LF in the 153 has the longest xmax you can get in any commercial 1x15 that I'm aware of, twice that of the average.

[will33]

There are some DJ subs that can do an honest 30hz, (cough)Bill's(cough), but that isn't what you need. Like he said, the avatar is the best of the storeboughts. You need that crossover to a mid component to have any sense of pitch on those deep notes.

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by Ric5

I would go with a 1x18 and a 2x10 setup.

And you'd regret the choice.

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by slauf

There is a Low B-2 near me for $400; is that reasonable?

Bongo got the price wrong, they are $450 new - just checked Andy's web site.

A single B2 won't get you too far with an F#. I always use a pair in a vertical stack as in my avatar. I've played one of my sixes through them tuned to A with drop key on the sixth string. That got me to G# which came through very well.

I think that a pair of B2s or a B4 should get you where you need to be.

[alexclaber]

I strongly suspect that what you're actually hearing and what you think you're hearing are an octave out! So that SWR cab probably had good output in the 100-120Hz area, not at 50-60Hz. Play a low F# through a cab that still has good sensitivity and power handling and low distortion in the 45-55Hz area and you'll be amazed.

Right now you're used to only hearing the third and fourth harmonics of low F# as your bottom. Get the second harmonic happening, without a ton of harmonic distortion, and you'll be amazed. Bear in mind that if your deepest is coming from the third harmonic it will tend to sound muddy because it's the fifth of the note. The second harmonic is the octave so it ties the pitch down much better and any overtones it generates through harmonic distortion are much more in sync with the natural overtones of the note.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by wcriley

Early in the evolution of the fEARfuls, Greenboy designed a cab specifically for extended range bass. I think it was called the fEaRB

An F#0/E0 (Hipshot) ERBer myself, I designed the fEaRB for F#0 and lower. But compared to the fEARful 15/6 design (which made a G0 very nicely indeed), the fEaRB was larger and thus weighed more. Not that many people were willing to deal with the added bulk to get the high-SPL deepness it could deliver.

So I experimented a little more and then documented extending the shelf tuning of the 15/6 a couple more inches. That kills for those wanting to go F#0 or lower. It's a better solution as far as those who don't have roadies are concerned, and it's what I myself use today for the lower-girth subterranean stuff.

[rpsands]

What Alex says exactly. You need lots of output at 50hz, which not that many commercial cabs have.

Go fEarful or Barefaced Big series/Dubster, or go home.

I'd stay away from Acme's for tunings below low B IMHO. They are optimized for doing 30hz fundamentals. Asking them to do 25hz fundamentals is very likely to be an exercise in over-excursion. Because of the design, Acmes will be doing maximum work in the 50hz area (saddle frequency) and I predict lots of ickiness from that combined with the very low sensitivity inspiring you to crank it up.

[slauf]

Thank you all for a very helpful discussion.
By the way I should have mentioned - at home I play the bass through a studio monitoring setup that is flat to 35Hz and -6db at about 29Hz. So yes, I'm pretty sure I'm correctly distinguishing fundamentals from second- and third-order harmonics. Obviously it's not the kind of gear that I can take to gigs, however. So the Acmes appeal because they have a very similar flat response to my home setup.

Rpsands - excuse my ignorance. What do you mean by "saddle frequency"?

BassmanPaul - the price for a B-2 is just over $600. I think you were looking at B-1?


Alex - I took a look at the fEARful extend-the-shelf guide and it seemed like they have a significant rolloff below 40Hz. Was I reading the graph wrong or is there a better frequency response graph I should be looking at?