Best Choice for 18" Sub

[Rayzorx]

Hi, I'm planning a cabinet build for a new amp I bought. It's an Eden WT600 stereo amp, and can run 300w a side @4ohms. The cabinet set up I'm planning is 2 - 1x15 cabinets for the high end, and 2 - 1x18 cabinets for the low end. The amp can run one side to the low end cabs (both 18s) and one side to the high end cabs (both 15s). I already have the 15" speakers, but I'm looking for some suggestions for the 18" subs. So far I've looked at ones from Carvin, JBL, Emenence and Celestion, but I have not been able to listen to any. I'd like to get some input from anyone who has experience with an 18" sub. BTW, I play a blend of rock/jazz/funk and like a clear articulate sound.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Rayzorx

Hi, I'm planning a cabinet build for a new amp I bought. It's an Eden WT600 stereo amp, and can run 300w a side @4ohms. The cabinet set up I'm planning is 2 - 1x15 cabinets for the high end, and 2 - 1x18 cabinets for the low end. The amp can run one side to the low end cabs (both 18s) and one side to the high end cabs (both 15s). I already have the 15" speakers, but I'm looking for some suggestions for the 18" subs. So far I've looked at ones from Carvin, JBL, Emenence and Celestion, but I have not been able to listen to any. I'd like to get some input from anyone who has experience with an 18" sub. BTW, I play a blend of rock/jazz/funk and like a clear articulate sound.

IMHO if you don't have the skills to choose your own drivers you don't have the skills to design a cab, nor probably to build them either. Look at tried and tested designs, like fEarful. I also wouldn't pair eighteens with fifteens, there's no logic to it. Eighteens and tens, yes, but guitar tens at that, since they won't be carrying any lows.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

IMHO if you don't have the skills to choose your own drivers you don't have the skills to design a cab, nor probably to build them either. Look at tried and tested designs, like fEarful. I also wouldn't pair eighteens with fifteens, there's no logic to it. Eighteens and tens, yes, but guitar tens at that, since they won't be carrying any lows.

To go further...15's for your highs sounds like questionable engineering at best. The minute you get those 15's into the mid-range area all you're getting is poor off axis response and beaming.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 to both replies. I'd suggest a period of learning first, before attempting this. Does the amp even have a crossover built-in? The whole thing smells like fail.

[will33]

+1 to all.

The easiest thing you could do and get a decent result would be to add closedback 6's or 8's to your 15 cabs and wire them to a separate jack. Set the amps crossover up around 800-1k to protect them and run that way. Best chance of success there and 1/2 the cabs to carry. If you're handy, you good get a little better sounding midranges and do subchambers for them or build a little topbox to house them.

[4-string]

And AFAIK, fEARful cabs are 8 Ohms, at least the 15/6 and 12/6 models (not sure about the 1212 or 1515 models) and that amp is quite capable bridged into 8 Ohms.

[dog1]

Less than a month ago, I was given a EV driver and asked to duplicate the EV cab that it came in. I did this down to every detail, including fill. When I took it to our rehursal, just for kicks, I plugged it into my GB Neopak 3.5 and played my bass through it. I have never heard such a muddy, muddled mess in all my life. I have concluded that subs are only good for kick drum. NOT bass guitar. (unless you want your bass to sound like a lifeless, low end boom with no defination) For bass guitar, I like 12's

[BurningSkies]

Apparently it wasn't a good sub design then. I have a dedicated sub as part of my rig and it's not muddy or muddled.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Apparently it wasn't a good sub design then. I have a dedicated sub as part of my rig and it's not muddy or muddled.

Or it was a very good sub design. The best subwoofers only work well below 125Hz or so. Most tone, timbre and even pitch information originates above 100 Hz. If you play through a good sub alone it will sound like crap. It's supposed to. You have to use a sub along with a top.

For bass guitar, I like 12's

Driver size in and of itself is moot. Some of the best subs made, costing $3k and up, are loaded with twelves. Some of the worst subs made, as in $199 DJ junk, are loaded with eighteens. The key to success isn't driver size, it's knowing what specific gear works well in a desired application, and what doesn't. And that brings us back to the OP, who needs to do quite a bit of research on how speakers work before considering designing his own.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Or it was a very good sub design. The best subwoofers only work well below 125Hz or so. Most tone, timbre and even pitch information originates above 100 Hz. If you play through a good sub alone it will sound like crap. It's supposed to. You have to use a sub along with a top.

Driver size in and of itself is moot. Some of the best subs made, costing $3k and up, are loaded with twelves. Some of the worst subs made, as in $199 DJ junk, are loaded with eighteens. The key to success isn't driver size, it's knowing what specific gear works well in a desired application, and what doesn't. And that brings us back to the OP, who needs to do quite a bit of research on how speakers work before considering designing his own.

True that. I would never run a sub by itself. But true sub frequencies aren't the places where we get mud and boom...that's usually a bit higher than 100hz or so.

[chuck3]

Originally Posted by Rayzorx

HThe cabinet set up I'm planning is 2 - 1x15 cabinets for the high end

That phrase made my day. I'm not an engineer, but I know what I like. (I.e., statements I could never read anywhere else but on TalkBass.)

[will33]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

True that. I would never run a sub by itself. But true sub frequencies aren't the places where we get mud and boom...that's usually a bit higher than 100hz or so.

And true that. The boomy crap sound we hear in most bass cabs is centered around 120, the result of stuffing too much driver in not enough box. Using a low tuning can remedy it to some degree but can't cure it. Unfortunately, most bass amps don't have a narrow Q ajustment set to 120.

I still think what most people hear as bass is an octave above bass...I used to think so too.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You have to use a sub along with a top.

But Bill, that's exactly what the OP is planning to do......use the 18" driver bins for the subs, and use a pair of 15" tweeters.

Note to Rayzorz: we are just having some fun with you. Don't take it to heart. Seriously, if you want success in your endeavor, the suggestions in some of the above posts to take time to learn are sincere and meant to help you succeed. And when I say "time", I don't mean a day or two. I mean a month or more, at least! Then, once you have learned, you will come back to this thread and laugh at yourself for what you were thinking. I know this because I laughed at myself with what I used to think was right (regarding speakers). There was a time in my life when I thought speaker diameter was everything, and the larger the diameter, the lower the frequency of output. OMG.....I can't believe some of the stuff I used to think. Thank goodness there are highly educated and experienced people on TB such as Bill Fitzsmaurice, Greenboy, and others, who willingly share useful information with the rest of us.

[Oobly]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

Note to Rayzorz: we are just having some fun with you. Don't take it to heart. Seriously, if you want success in your endeavor, the suggestions in some of the above posts to take time to learn are sincere and meant to help you succeed. And when I say "time", I don't mean a day or two. I mean a month or more, at least! Then, once you have learned, you will come back to this thread and laugh at yourself for what you were thinking.

+1. And then build yourself a pair of fEARfuls...

[staindbass]

evx 180b in sealed cabs are fantastic. even the mids are good enough to record in the studio for a major label. no mud from those. they start to die off around 800 hz. been using them on tour for 8 years and nothing comes close. i wouldent use ported sub cabinets. 10" would be a better choice for the mid/high end. the "expert designers" at ampeg told me they wouldent work when they were building them. im sure the jbl driver is very good too. they are used in pro sound applications.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by staindbass

evx 180b in sealed cabs are fantastic...the "expert designers" at ampeg told me they wouldent work when they were building them.

If they said they 'wouldn't work' that raises serious doubts about their level of expertise. The EVX180b works very well in a sealed cab, if you are content with -10dB response at 45Hz. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just wasting the capabilities of the driver, which will go -10dB at 32Hz in a vented cab. OTOH there are many smaller drivers equally capable of -10dB at 45 Hz, and being smaller they don't sacrifice midrange dispersion like an eighteen does. If that's what the 'experts' said, they were right.

[Rayzorx]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

IMHO if you don't have the skills to choose your own drivers you don't have the skills to design a cab, nor probably to build them either. Look at tried and tested designs, like fEarful. I also wouldn't pair eighteens with fifteens, there's no logic to it. Eighteens and tens, yes, but guitar tens at that, since they won't be carrying any lows.

Actually, I'm not designing the cab, I'm just building one from a design created by someone who knows how to design bass cabinets.
This particular design used a Ciare woofer, which is too expensive and hard to get. I've decided to take the specs of the Ciare and try to match it to something more available like an Eminence woofer.

[Rayzorx]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

But Bill, that's exactly what the OP is planning to do......use the 18" driver bins for the subs, and use a pair of 15" tweeters.

Note to Rayzorz: we are just having some fun with you. Don't take it to heart. Seriously, if you want success in your endeavor, the suggestions in some of the above posts to take time to learn are sincere and meant to help you succeed. And when I say "time", I don't mean a day or two. I mean a month or more, at least! Then, once you have learned, you will come back to this thread and laugh at yourself for what you were thinking. I know this because I laughed at myself with what I used to think was right (regarding speakers). There was a time in my life when I thought speaker diameter was everything, and the larger the diameter, the lower the frequency of output. OMG.....I can't believe some of the stuff I used to think. Thank goodness there are highly educated and experienced people on TB such as Bill Fitzsmaurice, Greenboy, and others, who willingly share useful information with the rest of us.

Good points and well taken. I've done some testing with different commerical cabs that are close to what I thought I wanted. I've come to the conclusion that I'll use a 15" cab for the low end and a 4x10 cab for the high end. With my amp and bass, this setup gives me the a punchy bottom and a nice mid range. I play a Funk/Afro-cuban style and this sound works for me.

[BassmanPaul]

Trying to shoe-horn a driver into a cabinet that was not designed for it is a crapshoot at best. Speakers in a box kind of thing. Trying to use 15s for highs and 18s for lows is a pointless excersise as the 15 will not reach much higher than the 18.

[will33]