Big old power amp vs. tiny little micro-amps

[richnota]

Silly question from a TB'er who is definitely NOT a newbie.

I was moving a traditional rack mounted power amp this morning and realized it weighs more than my two Acoustic Image and TC450 amp combined.

IME my AI amp is plenty loud, clean and reliable. Is there any upside to carrying a heavy power amp? Could i run a small vocal PA through the second AI's 400 watt power section?

[Jim C]

There are those who say that the old fashioned, heavy weight, iron transformer amps have a different sound (more substantial bass, better transient repsonse, fullness, etc.) than some of the micro heads.
I agree that some of the micro heads do suck, although I am happy with an LMII when AB'd against an SVTCL as wel as an SVPCL pre and big power amp, in my living room, with a variety of cabinets, and an Ampeg amp/speaker selector that allows gear changes in 1 second.

I hear a difference but the difference is not in quality; just a different tone.

[JimmyM]

there are many who believe that amps with their big power transformers generally sound more stout than the lightweight amps. but i see a lot of sound companies switching to class d power amps, so it should work fine. whether you like it or not is up to you.

[groooooove]

IMO its the same thing as thinking a computer from 1985 that took up half a classroom is still "better."

there is no "downside" to micro amps, or benefits of heavy amps- other than, if your happy with the sound of your "heavy" amp, then why switch, if nothing else fits your needs.

[diechris]

I have to say... I currently have a 80lbs 300 watt all tube ampeg power amp and I have a 4lbs 500watt GK mb2-500 in the same rack...

Running the GK as a preamp for the ampeg.. WOW I never knew how much fuller.. REAL tubes can sound..

I need to find a rolling rack now though.. Im taking it on tour this summer and I'll see how it goes but tone wise... I think its amazing what you slowly forget after only hearing newer amps..

[KramerBassFan]

I prefer old amps.

Cheaper, and lets me attempt to try and fix them when they break after 30 plus years of abuse or so.

Micro amps? No thanks. I just don't want them. No biggie. To every one their own.

[Jefenator]

One of the reasons I justify keeping my pre + power rack is for that odd occasion (like once every other year) where a spare power amp channel proves handy.

Could just be the placebo effect, but I do think I notice a subtle correlation between amp weight and quality of response on loud gigs.

[chadds]

There is the issue of how much power is stored to give you full transients. However in the music you do you may not need this. Recently a poster here said his F1 wasn't as big in the lows as his lead sled but he didn't need the big lows.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by chadds

There is the issue of how much power is stored to give you full transients. However in the music you do you may not need this. Recently a poster here said his F1 wasn't as big in the lows as his lead sled but he didn't need the big lows.

that's the voicing of the pre more than anything, although there are many who believe in the power of the big iron. i notice the difference with my svt, but not so much with hybrids and ss amps. entirely possible, though.

[Lync]

I hear no difference when comparing micro SS (or hybrid) to old heavy SS or hybrid. All-tube vs. micro can be a different story, but that was different with old SS vs. tube anyway.

Love the new micro amps-technology at work.

[username1]

I just picked up an swr headlite and i notice no difference at all in sound and output than any other heavier model swr or hybrid amp. My svt classic on the other hand has a sound that i really dont think can be duplicated by any other lighter amp. I think with a good tube amp the size and weight are just something you have to live with to get that sound. The headlite is amazing though and i wouldnt ever use another heavier hybrid. Just my opinion.

[MAMMOTHvolume]

Output transformers (big lumps of iron) Are great for valve amps since it's not really possible to get huge amounts of power using current coupled methods like with SS. For SS though using an OT is just not ideal unless you put alot of money and get a high quality one wound, even then the cons outweigh the pros though.

[muddycreek]

Originally Posted by diechris

I have to say... I currently have a 80lbs 300 watt all tube ampeg power amp and I have a 4lbs 500watt GK mb2-500 in the same rack...

And this, I think, is where the 'old (or new) and heavy' vs. 'new and light'
discussion has some merit.

There aren't huge differences in heavy or light solid state power sections. However, there ARE (generally) tonal differences between solid state and tube power sections. Different discussions.

For a lot of people, there IS a reason to haul around a 40-80lb tube head. For most, there probably ISN'T a reason to haul around a 30-50lb solid state amp, unless 1) it's already the ideal amp for them, or b) there's a money issue.

I'd get a little Markbass/GK/Genz amp in a heartbeat if I could currently justify spending the money.

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by username1

My svt classic on the other hand has a sound that i really dont think can be duplicated by any other lighter amp. I think with a good tube amp the size and weight are just something you have to live with to get that sound.

Agreed.

I really loved my SVT CL and the tone that those tubes help produce cannot be completely duplicated in a micro amp IMO.

Having said that, I sold my Ampeg and bought a TC RH450 as I was sick of dragging around a 85lb head. The micro stuff IMO can sound great and in a gig mix, I have had no problems being heard of pumping out great tone.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

that's the voicing of the pre more than anything, although there are many who believe in the power of the big iron. i notice the difference with my svt, but not so much with hybrids and ss amps. entirely possible, though.

Nicely said. And to counter my own argument I use IPs which keep dishing out the big low end. Who knows? I certainly know I play a lot of gigs where a mini is overkill. They can cop a cranked vibe at low volume and that's a treat!

[craig.p]

> Is there any upside to carrying a heavy power amp?

I don't think there's one answer that'll fit all situations. Each person and each situation will have different requirements, and therefore put higher priority on certain attributes. I think prioritizing your desired attributes beforehand is crucial. A short and by no means comprehensive list:

• Reliability -- relative to the reliability requirements imposed by what you're using it for
• Tone
• Portability
• Can survive harsh operating conditions, e.g. high temperature
• Can recover from non-spec loads
• Will work into "strange" loads
• Warranty response/support
• Ability to be repaired by independents

Also, each attribute's score won't necessarily apply to all manufacturers or even to all products within a manufacturer's line. (For a given amp class, some manufacturers' designs are more stable/matured than others'; and for a given manufacturer, his design in one class may be more stable/matured than his design in another class.) So I believe you almost have to consider your answer on a specific model-by-model basis.

Just one more point: "Heavy" power amp in the context of big bass cabs that can easily weigh as much as a sack of horse feed is a bit of a non sequitur, unless you've got two or more real sleds installed in one rack, in which case I can see the concern. I'm just urging some perspective and some ROI work beforehand.

The SVT isn't a power amp per se, though I can definitely see not wanting to carry it even across the room.

[bigsack]

IMO old heavy class A/B amps sounds better with alot more bass and warmth to the sound.
the class D amps sound a bit like loud tin cans to my ears.
BUT...
this is all fine when your are in the rehearsal room or in the recording studio.
i see no reason to carry these heavy monsters to gigs.
the actual sound of your amp won't really matter unless it's
a really small gig with no PA.
in most live situations your amp will be just a monitor getting a split feed from the DI box.
so, unless you are getting paid enough to hire a roadie to carry your led brick i would stick with the small wonders

i wish we had this kind of amps 20 years ago when i used to carry amps for gigs and rehearsals

[Hollywars]

I had a Genz Benz NeoPak 3.5, and at 250 watts or whatever at 8 ohms, at full volume with a BFM top and bottom, it still wasn't that loud. My old Carvin Pro Bass 500 is so much louder it's not even funny, and that's at most 175 watts at 8 ohms.

[TripleDouble]

In the past year I owned a LMII, Shuttle 6.0, 800RB, 700RBii and a V4B. They all had really cool qualities and their own unique voices, but I've happily settled on the 700 as my only gig amp, it's a great middle ground between weight/versatility/ballsiness. It's power section sounds much better to my ears than the micros but still is only a 2U 20-ish lb amp. With a VT bass or SFT, this can get really close to the V4B's/SVT tone too, especially given that i play a lot of places with less than ideal stage sound. I sold the micros and 800, and kept the V4B for the self indulgent rehearsal studio..

[Greevus]

I play both an SVT and a GK micro. I am digging the new micro technology. There does still seem to be a bit more 'oomph' with the tubes and big transformers. I think the micros benefits just outweigh (pun intended) the old behemoths. I am excited to hear the GK fusion as I hope it will bridge the gap a bit. Am thinking that in a short time, the micros are gonna be ferocious little beasts and the tubes are gonna go up even more in price as fewer ones will be produced. I still appreciate the tube loyalists. Nod to Jimmy. You ALWAYS know when a cat's playing an SVT live.