Bizarre speaker behavior. Any Ideas?

[Gmclachlan]

Originally Posted by 12bass

Knob position is not a valid indicator of how much power you're sending the speakers.

Agreed. I wasn't indicating that the amp isn't sending a ton of signal to the cabinets, because it is. It's just that it's unlikely that the amp is clipping when the -14db pad is engaged, the preamp volume is at 10:30, the master is at 12, and I generally use EQ to cut mids. When bridged, the thing is loud.

[Calaverasgrande]

it's the Wal.

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by Gmclachlan

Agreed. I wasn't indicating that the amp isn't sending a ton of signal to the cabinets, because it is. It's just that it's unlikely that the amp is clipping when the -14db pad is engaged, the preamp volume is at 10:30, the master is at 12, and I generally use EQ to cut mids. When bridged, the thing is loud.

Clipping is a bit irrelevant. Preamp clipping, which the light probably is, would help matters by being a limiter if anything.

[RS66LB]

Originally Posted by Gmclachlan

Ha! Yeah, not too many of those comments are sinking in with me. Our band is extremely loud, as in 2 SVT's-was-just-loud- enough-but-hard-to-carry-so-I-bought-a-1000-Watt-solid-state-head-and-2-1200-watt-cabinets loud. And custom molded earplugs.
The bottom line is the drummer is hard hitting monster and the guitar player uses 2 100 watt Marshalls. The volume requirements for this band are non-negotiable; I need to be heard. I bring both cabinets, that is (2400W power handling) when I can. Here's a live video if anyone's interested, ironically, the bass is kinda quiet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WByvdw_e6po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zfzU0j-BDg

Occasionally, I blow speakers. Having said that, the HPF is excellent advice, and I'm following it immediately. Much thanks to those who suggested it. No reason to ruin gear if it's avoidable.
It turns out one of the speaker looks to be bad. Everywhere I put it caused that pair to not respond to the battery. In retrospect, it was obvious, but I assumed new speakers wouldn't be the problem.

Thanks again everybody.

Yeah, my rig might even surpass your with regards to SPL however I haven't fried anything yet due to it being bi-amped -basically I have a 2x18" fed with a little over 1000 'real' watts for 30-125 hz and an extremely sensitive (around 106 db 1w/1m) 'upright' 4x12 for 125-4khz. Each cabinet is fed by a seperate amp dedicated to those frequency groups, this keeps things very clean yet offers far more headroom then a single cab/amp set up. Bi-amped rigs are quite easy to create, aren't too crazy with financial expenditure however can be cumbersome since they require 2 very different type of cabs to be fully effective...perhaps you could use your 8x10 to cover 100hz and up while using a couple of single 18" cabs to deal with everything below that. Either way good luck and have a nice day

[BassmanPaul]

If the OP is blowing drivers then his system is inadequate for his needs. He should have his cabinet repaired by a pro to sort out his problems and then get a second identical cabinet to spread the load. It's speakers that get you volume not power.

I simply cannot imagine the volume levels that the OP's band uses. I foresee some very deaf musicians in the near future - even with the best ear protection!

[will33]

The cutting of mids likely part of the loudness problem, causing the urge to turn up and up.

Bridging a 2001RB into a single cab would be the other part. The cab likely has enough to handle running off one channel.

I do like the biamping idea, letting a real sub carry everything <100hz. Your amp is already set up for it.

Otherwise, you're simply going to have to carry your 412 to gigs. That'll spread the power around between more speakers, get you louder than you are running the one cab, and save yourself some blown speakers.

[arai]

Originally Posted by Gmclachlan

Agreed. I wasn't indicating that the amp isn't sending a ton of signal to the cabinets, because it is. It's just that it's unlikely that the amp is clipping when the -14db pad is engaged, the preamp volume is at 10:30, the master is at 12, and I generally use EQ to cut mids. When bridged, the thing is loud.

Do you always bridge the amp? This could be the cause of your problem

[Calaverasgrande]

Originally Posted by Gmclachlan

We do have a few quieter sections, but the loud is LOUD. No regrets, it's fun as hell, just occasionally hard on the equipment.

some folks on here don't "get" loud.

I swear it is like we are on a car forum and there is a consistent contingent warning us not to drive too fast.

[Calaverasgrande]

Originally Posted by mystic38

aargh indeed,

you clearly did not read my post carefully enough ...

read : "transients beyond which the amp has headroom for"

that is what i wrote, and that is clipping, which is what i meant.. and clipping in a solid state amp produces odd harmonics of the fundamental to infinity...which is the definition of a square wave.. i was simply using a euphemism but should have realised i was not talking to other engineers.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with "too loud" its a lack of headroom in the amp causing output distortions...

options are:
1. a soft limiter in the fx loop. this will act as a compressor at extremes and that is his best solution...it is transparent until in use.
2. a hf filter in the fx loop.. (as already suggested) as using tones controls is inadequate as this is before the output stage of the preamp
3, a compressor, again post pre-amp, though this is likely to have audible artifacts at all levels.
4. a much larger amplifier.. it is MUCH less likely to kill speakers with too large an amp than too small due to clipping and the associated output distortion.

he is already playing loud and a bit distorted. I do not think it will be easy to hear when the limiter kicks in if he were to use one. The problem with limiters is that they do a better job of raising the average level of teh audio material than they do of controlling it.
Also, with the exception of digital limiters I have yet to meet one that has zero overshoot AND sounds unobtrusive.


Surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious.
Possibly the cabinet got miswired and more current was directed through the speakers that ended up blowing.
It could have been a goof when swapping out previous blown drivers. Or it could have been a case of insulation melting from heat. I have actually seen that on a JBL PA cabinet I own or else I wouldn't bring it up. (though in the case of the JBL it melted to a short across the woofer.)

[Gmclachlan]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

some folks on here don't "get" loud.

I swear it is like we are on a car forum and there is a consistent contingent warning us not to drive too fast.

I'm sure people said that when SVT's first came out, "You'll never need that much volume!" I hope I'm not freaking anybody out here, but in the genre(s) of heavy music, SVT's really aren't that loud.
Also, I work for a production show where we get yearly comprehensive hearing tests, and so far good. Custom earplugs are one of the best investments I've ever made.

[arai]

Originally Posted by Gmclachlan

I'm sure people said that when SVT's first came out, "You'll never need that much volume!" I hope I'm not freaking anybody out here, but in the genre(s) of heavy music, SVT's really aren't that loud.

This is a good point.
Some people that were around then probably believed that and formed an opinion that it was all anyone would ever need and probably consider AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult etc heavy metal. But the game has changed, that stuff is just rock now.

[spaz21387]

I play in a loud band too Also have a fuzz addiction, and hardly ever blow speakers... the only time i did was when i smashed a bass on stage. Luckily they were cheap crappy madison 15s. I run 2 2x15s powered by a carvin r600. I suggest adding another 8x10 it will make you way louder and lower your risk of blowing speakers.

[Downunderwonder]

Those youtubes showed lip service to dynamics. Dropping out the guitar and leaning out the drumset while still maintaining the same high, nice try but fail in my book.

This is my problem with the loud as possible camp. Audiences love dynamics whether it's metal or lounge jazz. Loud, louder, more fx, doesn't do it fellas, dazzling musicianship or not. Build them up, take them down, then blow them away.

As far as the rig goes, the problem with doubling up the 8x10 rig is it messes even more with the mid clarity, the only thing which carries intelligibly is boom. Seek out hifi options. Fearful, BFM, Big E, anything but walls of 10's. You have stuff going on which needs to be heard.

[Calaverasgrande]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Those youtubes showed lip service to dynamics. Dropping out the guitar and leaning out the drumset while still maintaining the same high, nice try but fail in my book.

This is my problem with the loud as possible camp. Audiences love dynamics whether it's metal or lounge jazz. Loud, louder, more fx, doesn't do it fellas, dazzling musicianship or not. Build them up, take them down, then blow them away.

As far as the rig goes, the problem with doubling up the 8x10 rig is it messes even more with the mid clarity, the only thing which carries intelligibly is boom. Seek out hifi options. Fearful, BFM, Big E, anything but walls of 10's. You have stuff going on which needs to be heard.

Exhibit A.



ps: regarding that other post. Sabbath is still Metal. ACDC never was.

[Munjibunga]

Make it go sit in the corner for a while.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Make it go sit in the corner for a while.

A time out! What a great idea!

[BogeyBass]

could only imagine if all the speakers are tied into the 'player control network'

then something got wired wrong, or if its a board of some sort connections that still look good are not. might have got cooked from to much juice. Or the solder joints are cracked need to be retouched or mesa used thin wire and they got cooked. Etc etc
it may be obvious it may not. bad solder connections, bad wires can fool your eyes they can look good but are not and damaged internally. Or if it is a board some of the copper traces might have gotten cooked or if the boards been re soldered a bunch of times, to much heat has lifted/broken the traces. the traces look good but are damaged right near the eyelet where it gets soldered and a blob of solder is hiding the broken connection.

likewise turn up the mids or mid bass to get more presence in the band mix. little 10's cant keep up with over EQ'ing the lows.
they wont make much more sound and the bass frequencies will chew up the overhead of the cabinet.

the overall problem is bad EQ and not enough speaker.
If you need to add more speakers to your system, then add a matching pair of speakers. A 4x12 and 8x10 both have different phase responses even if the all move in and out together in sync. hence in phase....the frequency response of them is different and will cancel or boost certain frequencies. making a beautiful wall of overpowered mud.

once you sort out your speaker problem buy another matching 8x10. or drop your 8x10 and buy another matching 4x12 and stack it.
been in pounding loud bands with 2 guitars with full stacks.
and it took 2 8x10 ampegs to keep up. but yet a single cab still could almost keep up
Your guitar 2 heads or not seems to be only using one 4x12
and a mesa 8x10 should be able to keep up with that.
So im think mesa's dont have the overhead of ampegs or their is just to much bass boost on the EQ side. great thing with using 2 matched cabs is even if you dont sort out the EQ problem. Using 2 cabs will allow you to over EQ without blowing speakers.

[Gmclachlan]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Those youtubes showed lip service to dynamics. Dropping out the guitar and leaning out the drumset while still maintaining the same high, nice try but fail in my book.

This is my problem with the loud as possible camp. Audiences love dynamics whether it's metal or lounge jazz. Loud, louder, more fx, doesn't do it fellas, dazzling musicianship or not. Build them up, take them down, then blow them away.

As far as the rig goes, the problem with doubling up the 8x10 rig is it messes even more with the mid clarity, the only thing which carries intelligibly is boom. Seek out hifi options. Fearful, BFM, Big E, anything but walls of 10's. You have stuff going on which needs to be heard.

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

Exhibit A.



ps: regarding that other post. Sabbath is still Metal. ACDC never was.

Yeah. Exhausting. Pointless.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

it's the Wal.

Yup, it's gotta be the Wal.

OP you could send that my way and I'll gladly blow the **** outta my PH412 with that bass!

Love the band by the way, gonna pick up the album after work.

[Gmclachlan]

Originally Posted by dukeisdog

Yup, it's gotta be the Wal.

OP you could send that my way and I'll gladly blow the **** outta my PH412 with that bass!

Love the band by the way, gonna pick up the album after work.

Thanks! I'd like to let you know that I didn't have the Wal yet when we made the record. It's a 74 J bass, mostly through an MXR M-80 into a white switch SVT.