Bogner on the future of (tube) amps

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by DBCrocky

I can still hear modelling. It's not obvious right away, but after a little listening you can hear the modelled complex waveform repeating over and over again...

I do think you mean loop points in samplers. For organs or pianos instead of storing the whole waveform they pick out loop points. When you hold a key down it plays to a point and then starts looping. Samplers these days are very sophisticated and round robin the loop points. Disk space is cheap and some don't even loop.

Physical modeled instruments aren't based on samples so you would not hear loop points, i.e.
http://www.truepianos.com/

some instruments are combinations of models and samples.
http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_mssaxs.php

[JimmyM]

And if you can't tell the difference between a Steinway and a modeled or sampled Steinway, you are deaf.

[BawanaRik]

Sometimes you have to careful about branding a this or that sound.

Look at Jimmy Page, defined the Les Paul and Marshall sound, with a tele and a Supro.

[will33]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

I don't know, what is "feel" exactly? Dynamics into overdrive?

Try playing a real bass through a real tube amp with a real band at a real gig instead of sitting around in your underwear analyzing algorithms in the dark and you might understand. Again, you may keep your sex toys...I'll take care of the real thing thank you very much.

That reference is so fitting....

[throbgod13]

the funny part is, all digital "modelers" are trying to mimic tube amps..

most people do not grasp the concept of what "digital" is..

modeling has it's uses.. but it will never replace the tube circuit, nor a tube amplifier.. this is the fact.. you can argue about technology, use digital photography as a basis for that argument, or use digital audio as a basis..

but, until you experience what is real, as opposed to what is synthetic, you are living under ignorance..

yes, there are some who do understand the difference and are willing to compromise for various reasons.. ease of use, less equipment, lower cost, etc.. but, it's still a compromise.. and if you're good with that, fine..

Bogner is attaching his name to Line6 to sell amps and collect a check.. He will say anything to sell his amps and sell the Line6 equipment.. I have respect for Bogner amps, they are what they are.. but, Line6 is much less than that..

if you enjoy digital modelers, there's nothing wrong with using them.. there are no "rules" to break, or even any real guidelines to producing the music you hear in your head..

but, i find modeling weak, in general..

[seamonkey]

SS amps are modeled also, all over the place. SS effects also.

[will33]

I play my SS amps more often than my tubes. Doean't mean one is going to replace the other or that modeling/digital is going to replace any of it.

What's with the whole "gateway drug", "ease people into the digital world" references? You're not talking to 14 year olds. This whole thing smells of " hey everybody, look, look, Mr. Bogner did something with Line6....tubes are dead"........horsesqueeze I say.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by will33

I play my SS amps more often than my tubes. Doean't mean one is going to replace the other or that modeling/digital is going to replace any of it.

What's with the whole "gateway drug", "ease people into the digital world" references? You're not talking to 14 year olds. This whole thing smells of " hey everybody, look, look, Mr. Bogner did something with Line6....tubes are dead"........horsesqueeze I say.

"gateway drug" was a joke
I love my SS preamp, but lord the tube sound I've found in the Monique is way more than any tube pre and many tube amps. I use it with a class A/B plate amp. It's hand wired PTP old school with plate 21st century DSP. You can model anything you want. Go ahead. I choose today to use the best of the real thing. I know it responds.

[will33]

I get the joke, and I don't have a problem at all with a drug reference. It just seems he's using a well known "boutique-ish" tube guy who put in on a modeller to sort of infer that "even the best tubers are turning to digital modelling"....typical of his genocidal view of tubes, which I really doubt he's spent much "artistic" time with. If it came from anyone else, I'd be much more receptive to it.

If it gets the sound you're after, I really don't care what it is. For some it's digital algorithms, for others, it's a washtub and a string. Both are equally relavent. Kinda pointless arguing about art.....unless your art is to snuff out somebody elses art......then it's competition....not art.

[JimmyM]

Word.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by chadds

a class A/B plate amp.

Do tell? Don't you run a Berg IP?

[JimmyM]

Well well well...I just gave the results of my little Tube Challenge IV, and almost 75% of the people who voted (I forget the exact number of voters but it was over 100) were able to tell which was the real tube device between the REDDI and the VT Deluxe (a pedal that I still have much respect for). And judging by the comments in the thread, most of those who picked wrong picked wrong due to misconceptions they have about tube amps because they obviously never played through one, much like Seamonkey

Me, I thought it was a slam dunk. I don't see how anyone could listen to the tracks I posted and not hear the lack of compression and the richness of tone in the REDDI. But again, I believe the wrong votes were mostly due to lack of experience with tube amps and a misconception of them based on experience only with modelers and emulators.

At least that's my opinion based on the comments I got from wrong voters. To be fair, some of the wrong voters did have experience with tube amps, but most of the comments of wrong voters lead me to believe that they were judging the tones based on what they heard out of modelers and emulators.

[VanillaThundah]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Well well well...I just gave the results of my little Tube Challenge IV, and almost 75% of the people who voted (I forget the exact number of voters but it was over 100) were able to tell which was the real tube device between the REDDI and the VT Deluxe (a pedal that I still have much respect for). And judging by the comments in the thread, most of those who picked wrong picked wrong due to misconceptions they have about tube amps because they obviously never played through one, much like Seamonkey

Me, I thought it was a slam dunk. I don't see how anyone could listen to the tracks I posted and not hear the lack of compression and the richness of tone in the REDDI. But again, I believe the wrong votes were mostly due to lack of experience with tube amps and a misconception of them based on experience only with modelers and emulators.

At least that's my opinion based on the comments I got from wrong voters. To be fair, some of the wrong voters did have experience with tube amps, but most of the comments of wrong voters lead me to believe that they were judging the tones based on what they heard out of modelers and emulators.

Props to you, sir, on a test well administered. You've confirmed my position, but you have also further added to my tube GAS!

On that note though, I see fender and mesa making a 100w all-tube bass head...when is Ampeg going to do one too??!?!?! I'd love a 100w V4B in a fliptop-style head that could go with the portaflex cabinets they are already making. Two 1x15 cabs and I will be happier than a puppy with two peters. Paired with my CV 60's P bass strung with chromes and my VM 70's RI jazz the tone will be to die for

[BogeyBass]

I wonder if they will ever make a emulation of a emulation.

most likely it will cost more for the emulation than the original emulation. but heck at least it is a emulation of the real emulation and gets you close to the real emulation without the high collectors price of the highly desired original emulation....

does not make sense does it, emulation the new disposable pawn shop shelf filler.
seen a old pod for sale 20 bucks....seen a real bassman for 400 bucks seen a new bassman for 1400 bucks.....
meh nevermind.....

I wonder when the new line 6, line 6 emulator is coming out, I really really want one.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Do tell? Don't you run a Berg IP?

My bad, Class D.

[Russell L]

Every Monday night at the Blues Shack I get to play through my bud's '70s V4 into his '60s SVT 810. It's a jam, but at regular gig volume. I use either my '87 Jazz Bass Special with Fender flats or my '01 MIA Jazz with Chromes. The combination is the tone to die for, IMO. Then, when I gig with my Markbass rig I often search for that sound, but never get it perfectly, only an "emulation." Actually, only an approximation. We should call emulators "approximators."

But, the Markbass has a vibe all its own, and I also dig it. Never has it sounded bad. (It even sounds delicious through that old 810, but in a different way than the V4).

I haven't had a tube bass amp since my '60s blackface. Nowadays I like the lightweightness of my SS stuff. It sounds good to me, but I still want that old sound sometimes. At least the V4 gives me that once a week.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by chadds

My bad Class D.

Great example of well implemented DSP in any case.

[tech21nyc]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

...Tech21 doesn't need them. Although your gimmick if you claim some magic of analog over digital. It's going to be hard for you to make a jump and broaden your capabilities when the rest of the world is exploring the capabilities of the new vehicle. You have the talent, you have the sound designers, dig see what you can do in this vehicle. I'd love to carry Tech21 in my pocket - hell yeah.

We have quite a number of end users that have ditched more expensive modelers for our products and the reasons are usually the same. They prefer the "feel" and sound of a particular Character pedal over the digital version. We also find that not everyone in the world wants or needs 30 amps to deal with on a gig. Many end users just want the simple one amp approach. They just want one amp to use their pedals with. There is no wrong or right. Different strokes...

Even Bogner's flagship amp the Ecstasy is too feature laden for the player that just wants to plug into a Marshall plexi with a couple of pedals. The Ecstasy is a great amp but there are a great number of players that suffer from "option anxiety" when presented with that type of package. The Shiva was Bogner's answer to that problem. A lower cost amp that gets the bread and butter sounds that many want with out all the options and added cost.

Still a modeler by virtue of being a computer algorithm can offer a great bang for the buck product.The difference I think is that we aren't trying to talk people out of tubes or modelers. Everyone here that plays guitar or bass owns a tube amp. We love tube amps. They just aren't always practical. There seems to be little point to bringing an SVT to play the cocktail set at a wedding. If you need to record late into the night at your little home studio in an apartment building one of our SansAmps or a modeler will probably be a good way to go. While we prefer our approach, if someone wants a bunch of amps and efx in one package it's hard to beat the one stop shopping of a modeler.

There is an economic reality of the business side of this that is being ignored. Bogner is a talented designer and has designed for other companies besides Line 6. He needs to make a living like everyone. I know a few small amp designers and can tell you that in this economy, $3000 amps are not flying off the shelves. This is why a number of amp manufactures in recent years have started to offer pedals or have gone the offshore route. It's way easier to sell a $200 pedal than a $3000 amp.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by throbgod13

the funny part is, all digital "modelers" are trying to mimic tube amps..

most people do not grasp the concept of what "digital" is..

modeling has it's uses.. but it will never replace the tube circuit, nor a tube amplifier.. this is the fact.. you can argue about technology, use digital photography as a basis for that argument, or use digital audio as a basis..

but, until you experience what is real, as opposed to what is synthetic, you are living under ignorance..

yes, there are some who do understand the difference and are willing to compromise for various reasons.. ease of use, less equipment, lower cost, etc.. but, it's still a compromise.. and if you're good with that, fine..

Bogner is attaching his name to Line6 to sell amps and collect a check.. He will say anything to sell his amps and sell the Line6 equipment.. I have respect for Bogner amps, they are what they are.. but, Line6 is much less than that..

if you enjoy digital modelers, there's nothing wrong with using them.. there are no "rules" to break, or even any real guidelines to producing the music you hear in your head..

but, i find modeling weak, in general..

Now that the general populace thinks Mp3s sound good, I respectfully ask what would you expect?

[Jeff A]

Originally Posted by chadds

Now that the general populace thinks Mp3s sound good, I respectfully ask what would you expect?

+1