Bogner on the future of (tube) amps

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

A quaint little hobby that's on practically every single stage in the world to this day? OK

No, plank spanking isn't a quaint little hobby. But true tube fanaticism in a world where everyone's satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp? History.

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Electric pianos were poor models of pianos

No. The Rhodes is its own distinct voice, nothing at all like a strung piano, and nothing at all poor about it. The suitcase models are amazing because they're a blend of excellent analog technologies interacting in new ways, and the way the masters played with its distortion, which due to the huge jump in signal when hit hard could be applied to just one note/chord or a run in various amounts, is a whole new musical thing compared to guitars and basses which pretty much begin and end tunes with the same amount of distortion.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

No, plank spanking isn't a quaint little hobby. But true tube fanaticism in a world where everyone's satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp? History.

Is everyone really "satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp..."? I know I'm not. Theres at least a few more in these pages that are communicating the same!

[chadds]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

No. The Rhodes is its own distinct voice, nothing at all like a strung piano, and nothing at all poor about it. The suitcase models are amazing because they're a blend of excellent analog technologies interacting in new ways, and the way the masters played with its distortion, which due to the huge jump in signal when hit hard could be applied to just one note/chord or a run in various amounts, is a whole new musical thing compared to guitars and basses which pretty much begin and end tunes with the same amount of distortion.

Yes!!!
In fact no one thought the Wurlitzer sounded like a real piano. It was enjoyed for its unique sound.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by scotch

Is everyone really "satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp..."? I know I'm not. Theres at least a few more in these pages that are communicating the same!

The folks who fit that description are satisfied with a lot of other half done low rent stuff. Perhaps I smell a Troll.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

No, plank spanking isn't a quaint little hobby. But true tube fanaticism in a world where everyone's satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp? History.

I see more SVT's on stages now than I ever have. Tube fanaticism is not dead, it's making a big comeback, the kids are getting into it more and more, and they're getting hipper to the starved plate being lame next to tubes and transformers. And they don't whine about weight like geezer Talkbassers

[bassman64]

Originally Posted by dspellman

Depends on how long you happen to live. Tube amps came very close to going the way of the Edsel in the early '70's, you'll recall (or not, depending on your age). There are some pretty sophisticated transistor amps left over from that era, and by now, 40 years later, they would surely have evolved quite a bit. What killed them was a combination of Richard Nixon and the Soviet Military. We were pretty much out of tube manufacturers here in the US at that point, because everything had gone over to transistor, including probably the largest previous purchaser of tubes, the US Military.

Enter Nixon, who opened trade relations with China (and Russia and some other Soviet bloc nations soon followed). Until fairly recently, both Chinese and Russky electronics ran heavily on tubes; they've been several generations behind the US in that regard (in 1996 I visited Prague, and the hotel had a TV in the room -- a Satellit black and white tube model). All of our current tubes come from Chinese and Russian manufacturers, but even these are beginning to close for lack of business. The guitar tube amplifier market is tiny and won't support even a single tube manufacturer for long. Military and consumer orders have dwindled to not much more than a trickle. The largest market share in amplifiers belongs to Line 6 at the moment, with the bulk of that involving non-tube amps.

It's VERY likely that tubes will be manufactured (if at all) as a boutique business soon, and the same will go for tube amplifiers. It's now possible to model even the smallest characteristics of a tube circuit (the only thing preventing it is the complexity that will result for a consumer) in software, and at this point in time, only the fact that a tube amplifier can be slapped together cheaply and simply gives them an advantage. Nostalgia-based marketing holds them up in the market place (along with things like nitrocellulose lacquer), and not much else. As baby boomer money backs away from the market, new purchasers of amps will be those who've cut their teeth on Line 6 spyders and the like -- non-tube modeling amps. I think that tube amps will disappear more quickly and transition into all-SS amps even faster than the speed with which CRT-based TVs became flatscreens.

For the computer-guy above, I think that the transition will happen nearly as fast as we'll see computers switch over to all-SS "hard drives" as rotating hard drives drop off the market like flies over the next four-five years.

CRAP!!!

I just bought an amp with a tube pre amp section.....last time I had a tube amp was like 1979 or 80.

I knew I should have stuck with SS

LOL

[bassman64]

I had a line 6 Spider a few years ago. I bought it when I thought I wanted to try playing guitar. It was very loud and and had lots of features but it sounded like it was just missing something.
I didnt dig them 100%. sounded pretty good, build quality and all that stuff was good, just wasnt my thing...nor was playing guitar for that matter...maybe that was part of it...lol


I just looked at their bass amps, and under the modeling features it always starts with

"Rock
This model is inspired by* the ’74 Ampeg® SVT®"

inspired by means just that. any one who expects the exact tone they once heard on someone elses ampeg or Fender when they were playing their amp and what ever effects they were using, or whatever strings they had or whatever whatever whatever....is kidding themselves.

the replicators, can only do so much

[VanillaThundah]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...and they don't whine about weight like geezer Talkbassers

Well, we still whine a little


...just not when the ladies are around, we act all macho and then complain to our bandmates after the show

[scotch]

You know, I'm no Luddite & I have no vested interest in either a tube amp business or emulation proprietor. I'm also not 'made of money' and generally try to buy the best bang-for-the-buck that I can (with a few mildly extravagant exceptions). I do know what I like though. I also have to stay aware of what my clients like (I'm very fortunate to play for a living). More often than not, for me, only a real tube amp will do! It's not like I enjoy the added weight, I'm pushing 40 and have to schlep my own stuff more than half the time. Still, it's worth it to me to enjoy the tone and response I like- gear can inspire as well as enable!

I'm also open to new emulation technology & I do use it when necessary or when the pro/con ratio tilts far enough to make it worth the compromise . I have a ProTools system at home with plenty of emulation options. I also use a Line6 LowDown combo amp for home practice & "coffee shop" type engagements. I regularly try the latest emulation stuff & stay educated on it. I'll be at summer NAMM in a couple weeks seeing what's new and talking to the manufacturers.

I think I have an open mind. I also use both of these technologies very regularly. For me (just me, don't think I'm trying to project my 'template' on anyone else)- emulation sounds very close! It's often indistinguishable from the real thing on recorded playback. Still, I have yet to plug into an emulator and get the same reactive, tactile experience as the 'emulated' article. Again, I have no practical reason to choose the heavy, more expensive tube amp - other than purely musical reasons. I'm not out to "impress my friends" or doggedly adhere to old technology for sentimental reasons. It's just what works best for me most of the time. I'm certainly not alone on this either!

I'll continue to use both technologies up until I play an emulator that really NAILS the tone, response, feel and inspirational quality that I want. When that happens, I'll be happy to sell off my tube amps! I have no dog in this fight, as they say.

It seems that with the rapid improvements in modeling over the last few years & the ever increasing processing power of computers that it should be possible to satisfy my expectations. It just hasn't happened yet! From Line6 to Fractal to Amplitube, etc.... close, but no cigar in my opinion. Still, I'd rather play through a POD than go purely direct on a rock show (of course, I'd rather just have a great amp!).

[JimmyM]

Too bad I had to miss out on the glory days of PA's with tube power amps. Occasionally I get the romantic notion of putting together a small club PA with tube power amps. Then I remember how much it'll weigh...hey, I love tubes, but you can take it too far

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by scotch

Is everyone really "satisfied with one nondescript tube pasted into a solid state amp..."? I know I'm not. Theres at least a few more in these pages that are communicating the same!

Yeah, I don't get it. Because SOMEone's buying the idea big time!

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Too bad I had to miss out on the glory days of PA's with tube power amps. Occasionally I get the romantic notion of putting together a small club PA with tube power amps. Then I remember how much it'll weigh...hey, I love tubes, but you can take it too far

No, vocalists need tubes as much as, or more than we do, they just don't know it because they're the least tech-aware of musicians. Wish I could have afforded to have the columns shipped with this AIMS PA head I bought in a system (I had them leave the columns in Iowa).

[Oobly]

I'm still learning about the tones and characteristics of tube and SS pre and power amps, but from all the samples I have heard and my own experiences, an all-tube and transformer amp/preamp sounds like no SS preamp / emulator / whatever ever could. There is a "girth" and harmonic warmth and dynamic that is always missing from the SS version. Most SS preamps and especially tube emulation pedals / pres sound "squawky" to me. Hard to describe, but it grates and doesn't seem to be possible to EQ it out completely. Same goes for "starved plate" and even semi-starved plate tube pres, they just can't get "that sound".

I am still on the fence about tube recftifiers and power amps, though, I think they make much less of a difference than the preamp and phase inverter stages of a tube amp.

I really like some SS preamps when combined with modern pickups for a musical solo type of thing where the bass is the only melodic instrument playing, but it just gets lost in a mix for me when used in a band situation.

For me, tonal heaven is a P-bass through a B15 or similar tube and transformer job. Discovering this has really surprised me, as I used to think all the hype about classic Fenders and tube amps was just hype with no substance. I don't think I'm alone, either, in which case the tube amp has a long future still. Wish they were as cheap and light as SS amps, but...

[Sartori]

As for kids playing guitar using modeling amps... yeah, lots of them do, when they start off. And then when they can afford it, most of the ones I know have gotten tube amps.