Bose L1 system: First-time experience from last night

[Dave Muscato]

Hey folks,

There was a big thread about the Bose systems here:

Does anyone play through a Bose L1 System ?

I had the opportunity last night to use the system for the first time with my band.

We are a power trio (electric guitar/vocals, electric bass, drums) and played at a smallish club with about 80-100 people (my estimate) present. We play loud funk/rock/blues (think SRV guitar influence, Neil Pert drum influence, Flea bass influence).

The club was "L"-shaped, which provided an interesting opportunity to really hear the distribution advantages of this system.

First of all, a big thank-you to Pete from the Bose forums, who helped us set up this show and for letting us use 3 of his Bose L1s.

Here was our setup:

Guitar player, Church, had a Zinky Blue Velvet 50-watt head with a Zinky 2x12 cab, using an upright, opened-up rectangular hardshell guitar case as impromptu isolation, with a Shure SM57 on one cone, running to a Bose L1 Model II, with 2 B1 bass bins and a T1 remote. The T1 was on the "Mic'ed Amp with SM57" setting, and I'm not sure what he was using for the vocals, but they were also running into his tower. Guitars were a '98 Fender American Deluxe Fat Strat (Fender Hot Noiseless in the mid and neck positions, Fender DH-1 in the bridge), and an '06 Fender American Toronado (with P90s).

I was using a Model II with 4x B1s and a T1, set flat IIRC, and my Line6 Bass POD xt Live, using the same settings I use for sessions, with a Fender American Deluxe Precision V Ash.

Drummer was using our Roland TD-6 SXT and a Bose L1 Classic with 4x B1s, no T1.

Now, to address the system itself:

1. To those of you who say it's underpowered, you are either on crack or half-deaf from too many years of playing through traditional PAs and backline amps with unnecessarily ear-splitting stage volume. The Bose system can get PLENTY loud - with it cranked, we still had to yell at each other on stage to be heard. I had my Zoom H2 recorder set to Low Gain and it was still close to clipping when we hit it hard. I can understand this system not being powerful enough for a 1000-seater, but for 95% of bars and clubs out there, this system is beyond sufficient. Granted, we were playing with an electronic drum set, but that doesn't mean we were any quieter: if it's loud enough that you have to yell when you're right next to someone, that's still up there.

2. Everything Bose says about even sound distribution is absolutely true. As I mentioned, the club was "L"-shaped, and during the opening band, I walked around and stood everywhere from behind the bar (with people and the physical wooden bar blocking line-of-sight from the PA), to way in the back of the room, to the "side" part of the L (90 degrees off-axis from the PA), and it sounded clear as a bell everywhere I walked. What really struck me was how intelligible the vocals were - I could hear every single nuance of the vocals, as though I were listening to a CD. It was truly eye-(ear?)-opening. You have to experience this in person to understand what I'm talking about or you will not believe how clear it sounds. Normally at a live show, the vocals just sound muffled and mushed - not so with the L1s. To put it another way, I never realized how UNintelligible lyrics were, live, until I heard the Bose system in comparison. This is truly a case of "you don't know what you're missing" until you've heard singing through the L1 in a mix. Every single lyric was positively transparent, which is good & bad - when the singer forgets the words, it's very, very obvious Not only that, but the volume difference between 10 feet away and 60 feet away is NEGLIGIBLE. I could not believe it - I had to walk back and forth several times for it to soak in. I don't understand the physics behind it, and I don't really care - it works. The clarity issue was just as apparent on the bass guitar - I could hear all my mistakes, all my string noise, absolutely everything. It was like playing with a Dragonfly stethoscope amp, only very, very loud and everywhere in the room. I practice with a Dragonfly so I'm used to hearing string noise, etc, but it is a totally different experience to hear this IN A MIX - you realize just how many mistakes you make!! This is not to be underestimated - what you put in is EXACTLY what you get out; there is no hiding with the Bose L1s. The audience will hear everything you do, and so will you.

3. Bass response - When we were cranked, the Packlite amp was clipping a little bit, until I noticed this and turned down the bass boost on my (active onboard pre) P to about 90%. Aside from that, the tone was phenomenal. It sounded just like a great studio monitor, but EVERYWHERE. Some people have said that the Bose does not have enough thump - that was not my experience in the slightest. In fact, I was telling Pete (the owner of the system) afterward that when we first hooked it up, and I heard Jake's kick drum through the system for the first time, I said, "Whoa!!" to myself - I was *not* expecting that kind of thump after some of the criticisms I've heard about the Bose system. Those things "pack a serious punch" in the words of our drummer, and I agree with him. Again, he was using 4 of the bass bins (which includes one of the Packlite amps in addition to the built-in amp), but there was more than enough thump there for kick drum.

4. As far as the cost, everything we used last night would cost about $12k if we were to buy our own duplicate system. Sticker-shock, yeah, but consider this - We drove 3 hours to this gig in a Honda Odyssey minivan. With some rearranging, we could have fit the three of us, all the gear we brought with us, and the Bose system we used without too much trouble and without a full-size van, cargo trailer, or second vehicle. I wouldn't want to go on a circuit tour in a minivan, but for 1-2 show weekend runs, this is ideal. We get better gas mileage by taking the minivan, parking is exponentially easier, and the minivan drives more easily and feels more like a car. With the Bose system, we did not need my Schroeder cab ($1000), my Crown power amp ($1200), the Fender Rumble 100 2x10 we usually use as a stage monitor for the electronic drums ($350), our 3 JBL Eons ($2200), or Mackie VLZ-1604 with SKB pop-up case ($1100) - which is the same as 1/2 of the system right there, and doesn't include mains or subs for the audience. If our guitarist decided to use a Line6 POD instead of his amp (which, after hearing the Bose system, he said he would be in favor of doing so in order to keep stage volume down), we wouldn't need his $2000 amp/cab, either. Combine this with the savings in driving a smaller vehicle, $50/night more for your gigs because you no longer need to hire a soundman, and the fact that you can set up for a show in 30 minutes instead of 3 hours and tear down in 20 minutes instead of 2 hours, and it seems almost stupid not to use this approach if your normal audiences are in the sub-500 person range. As I mentioned, this club was "L"-shaped, and though there were only ~80 people there, in a more traditionally-shaped venue and with a more reasonable volume (we had it unnecessarily loud, actually), it could have EASILY covered 500 people.

I will post the sound recordings as soon as I have them mixed. If you have any questions about my experience, please feel free to ask and I will answer them. I, for one, am sold, and my band is also head-over-heels with the approach. We will find it very, very hard to go back to a traditional system while we're getting the money together to purchase our own.

Regards,

[r379]

Thanks, Dave. Good report.

Now I'm sure someone will come along and say that it couldn't be working even though he/she wasn't there.

[Ben Clarke]

This thread is useless without pics...


of your Kool-Aid mustache!

[Dave Muscato]

Tell you what, I am not home right now, but I will post the unedited, unmixed recordings from my Zoom H2, and you can make up your own mind. I have plenty of similar recordings from other bands using traditional PAs for comparison. You really have to hear it in person, though. I'm not a physics guy; to be frank, I really don't care they work. I just know that they do.

I wish they were cheaper, but that's true with everything, you know? I don't know what else to tell ya; they do exactly what they're supposed to do and better than I thought that they would. Try it for yourself!

As I mentioned, I'm not home right now, but I'll post audio for you guys ASAP. I'm excited about this system because I have seen it work and it will make my life as a musician MUCH easier. Can't speak for anyone but myself and my band of course, but this system is a bona-fide godsend for us. More info coming soon (when it's not 4 AM!)

[vindy500]

i wonder if the peopel who say it is underpowered is like with fancy hifi, which if you turn it up it doesnt sound loud, until you try to talk... its just clear and not distorting...

[Dave Muscato]

Couldn't tell ya, Vindy; it was definitely loud last night. It was extremely clear (once I backed off my low end a bit - and remember, this was on an active bass, 5-string model, on the low B, at full-volume), but loud enough that we had to yell to each other over it. On the recording, you can hear us yelling to each other on-stage (not through microphones), so you can get a sense of how loud the actual stage volume was in relation to a yelled voice. The hi-fi thing might very well explain it - if you are used to a little bit of "warmth" when something is cranked past max, you may psychoacoustically perceive this system as not-loud-enough, even though you have to yell over it

All I can say is, if you're a working muso and you haven't tried this system in person, you owe it to yourself to give it a fair shake. I, for one, will not go back to a traditional PA - I already have a buyer for my Mackie mixer, haha.

[Chef]

I used one of these, once for DB. One column, one sub.
It was neat, worked well, packed nice....the cost tho....
Even used, I can't really do it.

[73jbass]

I got to hear one of these systems several months ago,and I was really impressed. A friend of mne was playing a local club that seated probably 75 to 100 people,and they used two of the towers,along with 2 subs. No amps were used at all. The guitar player used a multi effects board,the bass used a sansamp di,and the drummer used a Roland TD10 kit. The sound was clean with more than enough volume for the room.It just sounded great. The things work as advertised.

[el_mariachi]

two years ago I had the opportunity to use one of these systems when doing an elementary/middle school tour for this Mexican folk group I was running sound for at the time. We did, on average, 4-5 schools per day all week. This system was SO easy to load in and out and was even easier to setup. you didn't have to take the time to position mains/subs to "tune" the room correctly. The system was two speaker "towers" and 4 subs. Generally, every place we went to we placed the towers on each end of the stage and clustered the subs in the center. Almost every school we went to, we were in some form of cafeteria/auditiorium/cafetorium (as in every room was square and horribly echo-ey). This system performed like a champ in every room EXCEPT for one. This was a very large gymnasium with stage. And if anyone has performed or ran sound in one of these, you know how much of a nightmare they can be. For this gym, if we had maybe doubled the size of the rig, we would have ran comfortably. But we had to crank it a bit and it was nothing but reflection.

But, I must say I was impressed. The bassist in the group played a traditional guitarron (the bass you see many mariachi groups using). This thing sound big, bassy, and clear. Vocals were a breeze. What really blew my mind was when the owner said that the system was running at half-capacity, since we didn't have any of the remotes connected. Thats one design decision I never understood why bose made. That system should be able to run full capacity regardless if a remote is connected or not. BTW, we were using a Yamaha 01V digital mixer. For a portable rig, that was by far one of the easiest and best sounding rigs I ever used.

[Lync]

What kills me is the extra requirement for bass. You had 4 bass modules. The MII comes with one. That is just under $1300 of extra gear to get a bass tone (that like some lesser bass rigs farts out from the low B). Hopefully that was just from the gain staging.

I have the system with the single B1. Not usefull as a bass amp at all. My vocals sound exceptional. I don't want to shell out another $299 to still have to save up for the extended bass package.

That's where I am researching a "sub" bass cab to replace the existing (except in 4 ohm) so it runs at full power. Then at bigger shows, use a powered sub from the bass line out. To do this you have to adjust the eq and save the "scene" in the T1, but hopefully that will be a viable solution.

[JKT]

These unit have intrigues me from the get go. With the exception of a crazy egotistical horn player that totally miss-used his and turned it into a weapon, I have no first hand experience. But I have read a ton of reviews and such. Dave were using any kind of conventional bass rig at all or totally through the Bose?

I read an account where a bass player was able to seriously reduce the size of the bass rig and thus did not need so many bass modules. If I were to buy another PA I would be giving these a serious look. They are cost prohibitive IMO though.

JKT

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by JKT

These unit have intrigues me from the get go. With the exception of a crazy egotistical horn player that totally miss-used his and turned it into a weapon, I have no first hand experience. But I have read a ton of reviews and such.

Yeah, I did a TON of research about these and finally concluded I would have to try them out in person, even though Bose offers a trial period and 1-year financing. I'm glad I did, but I'm also sad, because now that I know what I'm missing by not having it already, I want it even more!

Originally Posted by JKT

Dave were using any kind of conventional bass rig at all or totally through the Bose?

Entirely through the Bose: no conventional bass amp or cabs. I was using a Model II and 4x of the B1 bass bins (with the Packlite power amp for #3 & #4).

Originally Posted by JKT

I read an account where a bass player was able to seriously reduce the size of the bass rig and thus did not need so many bass modules.

I have heard that using a Schroeder 1210L takes the place of several B1s and has a superior sound. I mentioned this to Pete (the owner of the systems we used), and we agreed that if we do this again, I'll bring my Schroeder 21012L and we'll try it out. I'll give you a full report if/when that happens.

A regular & "Product Specialist" (not exactly sure what that means but he knows his stuff) over on the Bose forums named Andrew Douglas is an electric bassist and wrote a nice article about using electric bass with the Bose system:

http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?title=Electric_Bass

Some good reading there and answers a lot of questions I had as a bassist specifically.

Originally Posted by JKT

If I were to buy another PA I would be giving these a serious look. They are cost prohibitive IMO though.

JKT

The price of entry is high, but long-term, they are a lot cheaper than a traditional PA. See this post for an example from another TBer. The real advantages are that you no longer need a truck, crew, soundman, and many hours of set-up, soundcheck, and tear-down - you can do it all (set-up, soundcheck, tear-down) in an hour combined. If you play even just once a week, those manhours add up fast! Not to mention saving your back...

In the words of ST from the Bose forums,

"There are several benefits that don't become readily apparent until you are experiencing them. Here are a few:


* Much less time dealing with logistics (load out, transport, load in, setup, sound check, dead-air before the gig, [play some music], tear down, load out, and if it hasn't killed you yet load in and set up. I used to look at a 12-15 hour commitment to do a 4 hour show. Now it's much closer to half of that. So what are you going to do with the other 6-7 hours? Make some money, rehearse, sleep? It's got to be worth something.

* You should have a lower negative impact on the environment in places you play. Anyplace where people need to talk (take orders, serve food/drink or otherwise interact with customers) - these places should appreciate your music, and the far less intrusive nature of your visit to their reality.

Does this mean more gigs?"

And remember, the Bose system is not just a replacement for your bass amp. It's your FOH mains/subs, stage monitor, FOH effects rack, (personal) mixer, AND backline amp & cab. When your whole band uses them, this also means you don't need a FOH soundman, monitor engineer, or a truck/van/trailer to haul your FOH mains, subs, wedge monitors, FOH & monitor mixers, power amps, snake, FOH FX rack, backline amps & cabs, etc, because you no longer need FOH mains, subs, wedge monitors, FOH & monitor mixers, power amps, snake, FOH FX rack, or backline amps & cabs. It can all be done with one 6'-tall tower plus 2-4 20~ pound B1 bass bins per person and THAT'S ALL. You could play a restaurant gig from 5-9 and a rock gig from 10-1 and be home in bed by 1:30 - and it all fits in a minivan. Try doing *that* with a traditional PA!

Hope this helps. Audio coming most likely tonight! I just gotta upload it - I will not do any editing, mixing, etc, I just have a lot of stuff I have to get done today first! Be back soon!

[Dave Muscato]

Pete (owner of the L1 systems we used on Saturday) just directed me to this article, written by ST (a regular over on the Bose forums) about the cost vs. value of the Bose systems. Thought I'd pass it along; he makes some good points, if you guys are questioning the value, considering they are awfully expensive...

I'd like to point out that Pete also mentioned to me that the $12k figure was for all 4 of his L1 systems - we only used 3 on Saturday, and to duplicate that set-up would cost about $10,400, not $12k! Still pricey, but read this before you decide:

http://shadowtoonz.spaces.live.com/B...pjeQ!168.entry

I, personally, am convinced that it's well worth it. Now, I just need to come up with the $... Selling our old PA for used prices will be a great start, and I gotta say, I will be happy to be rid of that monstrosity!

[roger winkler]

AAAAHHHH YESSSSS, Our band, www.recklessunion.com, has been using this system for years and will never go back to the "old way". If you really wanna see some "jaws hit the floor", wait till you get a chance to run the Bose system hooked up to the house system "FOH". We do alot of casino work and use the Bose for our backline and then run a line out to the house P.A. It just blows the audience away and the sound guy has no control over our stage volume, which is great to me. Yes, very pricey, but it has more than paid for itself in time and less backache. We use a 16 channel mixer board and some racked effects units which even increases the sound quality from the Bose. I was sold the first time we demoed the system.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by roger winkler

AAAAHHHH YESSSSS, Our band, www.recklessunion.com, has been using this system for years and will never go back to the "old way". If you really wanna see some "jaws hit the floor", wait till you get a chance to run the Bose system hooked up to the house system "FOH". We do alot of casino work and use the Bose for our backline and then run a line out to the house P.A. It just blows the audience away and the sound guy has no control over our stage volume, which is great to me. Yes, very pricey, but it has more than paid for itself in time and less backache. We use a 16 channel mixer board and some racked effects units which even increases the sound quality from the Bose. I was sold the first time we demoed the system.

"We use a 16 channel mixer..."

- Can you elaborate on how you have that hooked up?

"I was sold the first time..."

- Me too! All except for the $ part, haha... I guess that would be the defining part of "sold" - but I have already decided to sell my old PA and get the Bose system ASAP. I am not looking forward to playing the two gigs we have next week without it!!

[rodl2005]

Good review!!! Well done & glad U liked your experience with the L1. I've never used one. Last time I used a Bose system it was 10 yrs ago in a Jazz quintet- 2 PA stands had 6 or so li'l spkrs on 'em all pointing this way & that. & a Sub supplied the "subs" :-0 . I didn't like this- clear as it was- but to my ears there were NO mids!!!!! Plenty of clear tops, & rumbly subs but NO mids!
I've heard plenty of BAD reports on the L1 systems , but was good to read your positive one!
Thanx

[roger winkler]

Originally Posted by rodl2005

Good review!!! Well done & glad U liked your experience with the L1. I've never used one. Last time I used a Bose system it was 10 yrs ago in a Jazz quintet- 2 PA stands had 6 or so li'l spkrs on 'em all pointing this way & that. & a Sub supplied the "subs" :-0 . I didn't like this- clear as it was- but to my ears there were NO mids!!!!! Plenty of clear tops, & rumbly subs but NO mids!
I've heard plenty of BAD reports on the L1 systems , but was good to read your positive one!
Thanx

I've read lot's of "bad reports" also, but until you "learn" how to use the system to your advantage, you might be a bit disappointed. After we first got ours we were disappointed, but kept on experimenting with different ideas...plus many calls to the Bose support team...excellent help on their end btw... we finally got the "sound we were looking for.

[roger winkler]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

"We use a 16 channel mixer..."

- Can you elaborate on how you have that hooked up?

"I was sold the first time..."

- Me too! All except for the $ part, haha... I guess that would be the defining part of "sold" - but I have already decided to sell my old PA and get the Bose system ASAP. I am not looking forward to playing the two gigs we have next week without it!!

Our lead guitar player does all the hookups. I'll try and do my best on this, so here goes. We have two poles and two subs per pole. First we run a line out from channel one of each pole into a BBE Sonic Maximizer, from there to a vocal effects rack unit, then to the mixing board. All the instruments are run direct to the board. We do not use the remote because it's not needed with the mixing board. I did not personally like running my bass direct from the "pod" [ stand ]. I just couldn't seem to cut through the mix, so I'm the only one other than the guitar player not hooked into the system. He does hang a mike in front of his speaker cabinet though. To the best of my recollection this is how we do it. I'll be happy to help you as best as I can when you get the system. It took us about 6 months of tweaking before we got the desired effect..LOL

[Dave Muscato]

We got lost (twice!) on our way to this gig, and we didn't have much time for a soundcheck - without Pete (the owner of the systems) on hand, we would have been lost a third time , but I have to say, we were able to sound great within 5 minutes. I believe Pete actually has our entire "soundcheck" on tape; I'll see if there's a way to post it for you guys. I should say that we are accustomed to rehearsing with a perfect mix, since we use an electronic drum set, Line6 Bass POD, and Line6 Guitar POD, all through headphones, when we rehearse. The experience of playing with the L1s was identical, just louder, and everywhere in the room. Everything was crystal clear, present, and right where you wanted it.

For those concerned with giving control of the mix to the musicians, worried about volumes "creeping up" etc, it is really not a concern. Playing with the Bose is akin to sitting around playing with acoustic instruments - if you are too loud, you will immediately know it and you will want to turn down. This may not be an experience electric bassists can relate to, but imagine sitting around a campfire with a hand-drummer, an acoustic guitarist, a singer, and an acoustic bass guitarist. You set your own volume just with your own playing dynamics, and you immediately know & adjust your volume subconsciously so you sit right in the mix compared to the other instruments. This is the same with the Bose - you don't need somebody else to tell you if you're too quiet or too loud if you can hear yourself and the other musicians equally well. The audience also hears the same mix that you hear (one of the primary advantages of using this approach), so you really don't even need a soundguy, any more than you would need someone sitting around your campfire telling you, "The bass is too loud; the hand-drums are too soft," etc. You just know by listening.

[Lync]

Andrew and ST are awesome on the Bose board. Both are very helpful and make you enjoy owning the Bose system.

That being said, I am still on a quest to use all 250 watts of bass power with a single cab that sounds better for bass. I really don't want to have to carry the extended bass package. Weight is not the issue-accountable pieces are. Especially in the mayhem of late night break downs.

I agree though-there is a learning curve (I'm still at the beginning).