Building a better rig

mgazb · #1 10-12-2011, 04:55 PM

I have just started playing again after some years inactivity.

My current rig is a 100W Marshall Superbass head and 4x12 cabinet. I am thinking about adding another cabinet that would work well by itself and also could be used in combination.

I was considering a 15" driver, but I'm not sure whether I need a mid-range speaker as well.

I have been looking at the fEARful designs and am quite tempted by the 15/6 plans, but have been finding some of the drivers difficult to get in the UK.

thanks

singlemalt · #2 10-12-2011, 05:02 PM

Keep trying, you won't regret building a fEarful! A lot of places are out of the 3015LF's just now.

If you like DIY, cab building projects and can handle simple wiring, you will very pleased with the results.

The 15/6 is a great cab.

Only problem: you won't have any use for the 4x12 once the fEarful is done, except maybe to sell it to fund another cab build.

I'm building my second 15/6 this week to go with the 15/6/1 and the 12/6 cube. It's hard to build just one.

dhsierra1 · #3 10-12-2011, 05:04 PM

I'd check w/Speaker Hardware, they have kits for the various fEARFUL models. Very helpful and great customer service, check and see regarding shipment to the UK.

Featuring Eminence Speakers, Crown Amplifiers, DIY Speaker Kits - Speaker Hardware, over 30 years Audio experience

will33 · #4 10-12-2011, 05:29 PM

A note about the fEARful. Your amp, as cool and classic as it is, doesn't have enough power to take full advantage of what one can do. Even when cranked into oblivion, power tube distortion and all, the woofer in the fearful can take about twice that without a whimper.

That said, the thing is high spl overall and would be pretty loud anyway.

dog1 · #5 10-12-2011, 06:52 PM

With a 100W tube head and 4-12's, you have nothing to gain by adding more speakers. Actually, most "quality" 1-12 cabs will reproduce excellent quality with 100 watts input. Don't waste your money on more speakers. I would rather put 500 watts into a 300 watt cab. Keep your SPL up, and your sound quality will be better

Oobly · #6 10-13-2011, 04:13 AM

+1 for the fEARful 15/6. You can get the drivers from Lean in the UK.

Eminence KAPPALITE 3015LF NEO 8ohm 15 450watt Speaker : Lean Business, Oustanding Audio, Bass Guitar Speakers, Celestion Guitar Speakers, Guitar Amps, Tayden Guitar Speakers, Pro PA Speakers, Celstion spares, Celstion Vintage 30 and more!

18 Sound 6ND410 8ohm 180watts Very High Output Neodymium MF : Lean Business, Oustanding Audio, Bass Guitar Speakers, Celestion Guitar Speakers, Guitar Amps, Tayden Guitar Speakers, Pro PA Speakers, Celstion spares, Celstion Vintage 30 and more!

Service is very good and they have price match. If you have the skills and want to build the crossover from scratch, here is a place in Europe that stocks parts that can be used (particularly the Intertechnik and Jantzen Audio parts): Europe Audio - Home page

Otherwise you could order the crossover as a kit from Leland at speakerhardware.com, the shipping will be less than what the site states, best to get a quote from him.

It's not too hard to cut the wood for the build yourself since the glue used can fill gaps and allows a bit of leeway in accuracy. Speaking of which, finding the right glue in Europe is not so easy. Apparently this stuff matches really well, though: Joiners Mate Adhesive 310ml | Screwfix.com

After all that, the cab is very efficient and will put out a lot of volume, even with your 100W amp, but you will likely want to get a more powerful one to do the fEARful justice or add a 15sub. Makes for a light and powerful rig. My advice would be to sell the 412, build a 15/6 and a 15sub!

parapentep70 · #7 10-13-2011, 07:00 AM

With little power there is no advantage in the huge Xmax that kappalite 3015 LFs can provide. Not at 100W or (if using 2 cabs) 50W per cab.

I would go with a similar cab with higher efficiency and a decent (but not massive!) cabaility in the low end. I built something based on 2 Kappalite 3015s (non LF), they can be OK up to 400...1200W (2 cabs) depending on a number of variables. More than enough for many situations. Half the capability of the 3015LF, in return I get better low mids (or even mids if I needed them), more efficiency and smaller cab size.

I think that 2 fearful might be considerably less efficient than certain vintage 4x12 equipped with old loudspeakers with high efficiency and very low capability for lows (just 25 or 50W per speaker!!)

By the way yesterday I did an audition with a new band. I used their very old 120W Bassman tube amplifier combined with a small, rear horn loaded 2x12 Bassman cab that sounded really good. They told me all the former bass players in the band always liked it a lot. Impressive power for the size and power... at the expense of low end just usable for 4 strings (the 5th string sound was missing a lot).

My experience and my conclusion is that all those ultra-efficient, mid hyped Schroeder cabinets should sound very good with old low power tube amps (which are probably weak in true low end due to limitations in their output transformer anyway).

Barefaced cabs are also high efficiency. Similar to what I built for me.

Small BFM cabs can be great and similar to what I used yesterday: No way to produce massive SPL at 30 Hz, but very efficient from a very usable frequency. Definitely another good match to a low power tube amp. Larger BFM... even better.

Definitely with an amp like this I would not go the fEARful way, fearfuls shine if you have a lot of power to spare. You don't suffer the lower efficiency and you gain nothing from the massive displacement capability that won't be used with your tube amp.

singlemalt · #8 10-13-2011, 09:50 AM

Welcome back to playing, by the way. You have noticed that things changed whilst the Marshall rig sat in the closet. The good news is there are lots of folks out there looking for that "vintage" tube head. I sold the Sound City 150 I had for all those inactive years (12 years off for kids and jobs and life in general) for way more than I had in it.

Schlepping 70 lb of tube head around gets old real fast. You can get X times as much out of one of the new super light heads. Even my 20 lb GK 1001rb2 is looking heavy these days. 700 watts at 4 ohm.

The old 2-15 is parked in the basement, hopefully I can give it to some kid who has a large car or truck. I love tinkering with cabs, so I built a couple TL 606's to take the 3015's. A nice start, but once I heard a fEarful there was no going back.

You would be amazed at what the 12/6 cube, at 37lbs can do. For a short schlepp, I can take the 4 space rack, 12/6 cab, gear bag and bass in a slung gig bag in one trip.

But it's not all about the carry, given any feeble excuse, I'll take two fEarfuls, just cause it's super fun to play with the power.

There's plenty out there about the fEarfuls, but for me getting a stunning sounding rig AND scratching the DIY, "I built that!" itch makes it a huge win. That's why the third fEarful is under construction. (my wife has to go to town today, what will I do with five or six unsupervised hours? besides clean the house and make dinner?)

Look around for a fEarful owner in your area or a Talkbass GTG you can attend. GTGs are like going to a bass store with cool gear, really friendly people, and beer.

Alex1984 · #9 10-13-2011, 10:23 AM

Your head may not be able to take full advantage of what the fEarful has to offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog1

With a 100W tube head and 4-12's, you have nothing to gain by adding more speakers. Actually, most "quality" 1-12 cabs will reproduce excellent quality with 100 watts input. Don't waste your money on more speakers. I would rather put 500 watts into a 300 watt cab. Keep your SPL up, and your sound quality will be better

Why would this be? If it's something like the old 1960 412, the extra height alone would be an advantage. By adding a cab, the efficiency of the set-up is higher, allowing for more headroom or higher SPL, no?

scottfeldstein · #10 10-13-2011, 10:46 AM

Welcome back to music! I'm just getting back into it myself after a good 15 years away.

As has been pointed out, things have changed. Micro heads, lightweight cab design, neodymium speakers... wow.

Anyway, why would you need more than 4 12s? I play in a very loud band I doubt I would need more than that. And 100 tube watts driving them sounds like a pretty decent rig there. I could see maybe wanting different gear (lighter, more vertical, whatever) but not more gear.

At the moment I'm sporting a GK MB500 micro head (solid state), a GK Neo 212 cab and a GK 410 MBX cab. My ultimate goal is to get a second 212 and leave the 410 as a permanent rehearsal space cab.

sickest beast · #11 10-13-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlemalt

Welcome back to playing, by the way. You have noticed that things changed whilst the Marshall rig sat in the closet. The good news is there are lots of folks out there looking for that "vintage" tube head. I sold the Sound City 150 I had for all those inactive years (12 years off for kids and jobs and life in general) for way more than I had in it.

Schlepping 70 lb of tube head around gets old real fast. You can get X times as much out of one of the new super light heads. Even my 20 lb GK 1001rb2 is looking heavy these days. 700 watts at 4 ohm.

The old 2-15 is parked in the basement, hopefully I can give it to some kid who has a large car or truck.

+1

I was wondering if the OP knows how sought after his Super Bass is. hahaha

Alex1984 · #12 10-13-2011, 11:31 AM

I'd love to own a Super Bass. Haven't had much experience with gear from the other side of the pond.

mgazb · #13 10-13-2011, 05:23 PM

I really like the sound of the valve head and 412 cab. I was trying to get a second cab that was smaller and more portable than the 412. I am hoping to find something that would be good enough by itself but that could be used with the 412 as well.

I always wanted a 15" cabinet so I thought I would try what new speakers were like.

Last time I went out I was stuck with a tiny practice amp as I couldn't get the kids and all the rest in the car at once. Something with a single 15 would be ok with the head.

I am thinking that using the 15 by itself it would need extra midrange so I'm thinking about a 15/6/1 or 15/6 tube design.

thanks for all your advice.

scottfeldstein · #14 10-13-2011, 05:27 PM

I don't think you'll be able to use anything with your 412 cab. It's surely 4 ohms. I have, however, always wanted a fEARful 15/6. If I had a pair of those I'd give up every cab I have, true story.

Alex1984 · #15 10-13-2011, 06:03 PM

Well, the thing is the 412 has so much cone area, if you want even distribution of power and volume, it'd have to be a cab of similar size (ideally the same cab). You can try to get a vertically stacked pair of 210s.

scottfeldstein · #16 10-13-2011, 07:19 PM

If the 412 is a 4 ohm cab, you'd have to use another 4 ohm cab with it. That would bring you down to 2 ohms. Does your amp go down to 2 ohms? Mine doesn't.

mgazb · #17 10-16-2011, 02:31 PM

When I got the rig (errmm however many years ago) I was told it was an 8 ohm cab - which would make sense if they were wired as two parallel circuits of two in series. The kids removed the old (and now illegal) switches for voltage and impedence on the back.

I'll try checking the impedance sometime.

@Singlemalt yes, it is also the DIY itch in play. Building new is so much easier than restoring ...

mgazb · #18 10-26-2011, 05:57 AM

I checked the DC resistance of my 4x12 - 5.7 ohms so I think that's a 8 ohm cab.

Looking at the drivers available, it is a struggle to get a 15" (or 12") as low powered as 100W anyway.

The attraction of the Fearfull is that it is a tested design (possible not the cheapest, but DIY rarely is). Otherwise I am looking at long lists of driver specs and can do all the sums but there's still no guarantee that it will sound any good.

When using two cabs (with matched impedence), do I set the amp output to half the value?