Cab advice for someone who thinks they should know better

[father of fires]

I proudly consider myself a gear snob. I have had plenty of awesome rigs in my time. I have two current setups that I love. My gigging rig is an acoustic 370 and 301 cab. This thing is a monster. At practice I like to use my SWR sm400 and goliath II cab which takes overdrive and fuzz pedals way better than the Acoustic rig (I'm experimenting with adding effects to my setup). It is plenty loud for what we do. It easily competes with the 2 100w tube half-stacks and monster drummer that we have.

No one complains at practice but, when I try to bring it to shows they give me hell. All of a sudden the amp magically doesn't sound good to them. It doesn't have the right attack, the 10's are farty, or what ever other excuse they can think of. They say its like them bringing their 15w practice amps to a gig. They see my acoustic as a pro gigging rig and the SWR as a practice rig.

I'm getting tired of the 370. It is a one trick pony (even though that is one hell of a trick). I can barely hear myself on stage and the audience complains I'm to loud. Hell, these things were built for stadiums not basement shows (which I play a lot of). Some clubs want you to share rigs and I either have to use my 370 with another cab (which doesn't always sound good) or let everyone use my 301 (which would most likely end in a blown speaker) The SWR has so many tonal and impedance/cab options, I wouldn't be stuck with only 1 cab that can get my sound. Plus I can hear myself on stage, I'm not as overpowering, and I think the audience gets a better mix of the band. To sum up, the acoustic has one sound and the SWR has 100 sounds.

We play a sort of stoner/heavy metal/doom/classic/southern rock. They like to see me playing a big rig. I understand that. I really do. Some of these bands we play with have 1,000 amps on stage. But, I hate carrying it for some shows (it seems every club in DC has stairs).

So here's my dilemma. I'm looking to downsize and I want to keep one head. I'm pretty sure it's going to be the SWR. Now I'm on the lookout for a new cab that A) my band will like, B) I can share with other bassists, C) isn't to expensive, D) smaller than the 301 and bigger than the goliath II, E) looks cool.

I just recorded last weekend with a mesa 18" cab and it sounded killer (with a GK400RB which sounded awesome). My guitarist said it sounded like a tighter version of my 301 cab but, when I mentioned getting one for live shows he laughed it off. Anyways, I started looking at 18" speakers and fell in love with the look of the Bagend 18" cab which is sadly out of production but, I called and can get one of the ones left at the factory. This is a big investment ($770) for a cab I have not heard. I didn't pay that much for either of my current rigs.

So, I'm also looking at 2x15's. Most of them seem smaller than the 301 but, I've played a few smallish 2x15's (Peavey, Acoustic, Kustom) that did not impress me.

The last thing I'm thinking about is an Ampeg 810. I've had a few and they have always been decent cabs. I figure I can get one cheap and it will sound good. Its just bigger than I would like right now.

I know this was a lot to read. I tried to give plenty of detail.

Oh yeah, I play a G&L SB-1 (a half-step down) if anyone wants to know.

So what cabs do you guys think I should look at?

[ZiggyDude]

Let me know when you are going to sell the 371.

[father of fires]

The sharks are out already.

One last thing is, I would never forgive myself if I sold the Acoustic and then the new setup fails to meet my expectations.

A risky part of the search for tone I guess.

[will33]

First thing I'd do is stop taking the word of the other guys in the band as gospel unless they're also pro bassists/gear techs or whatever. Do you dictate to them what type of equipment they should spend their money on? If you did, would your guitar players scale back to mic'd up 112 combo's?

A single 410 may have a problem hanging with a pair of guitar halfstacks but a 215, 610 or 810 or 412 won't. I play an SM400s as well. Try setting one of your mid sweeps to about 250 and boost it some. The SWR is scooped out some there, gives them their tone but also takes away some frequencies, and with it, apparent volume right in the meat and potatoes range of a bass guitar.

If you're playing basement gigs, your 410 should be plenty, it's your guitar players who need to scale back their rigs by half at a bare minimum. 50 watts and a 212 can still be insanely loud for a guitar rig.

[rbonner]

Just playing 18's isn't an answer, and I sure wouldn't buy the bag end untried. You have to hear this stuff. I have a pair of AMPEG SVT-215e's here and really like the whomp. They have a bit more bottom end than the 810's and have a reasonable topend too. They are just slightly down on total volume, but we're splitting hairs at that point. But I wouldn't sell them to somebody without hearing them first. BOB

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by will33

First thing I'd do is stop taking the word of the other guys in the band as gospel unless they're also pro bassists/gear techs or whatever. Do you dictate to them what type of equipment they should spend their money on? If you did, would your guitar players scale back to mic'd up 112 combo's?

A single 410 may have a problem hanging with a pair of guitar halfstacks but a 215, 610 or 810 or 412 won't. I play an SM400s as well. Try setting one of your mid sweeps to about 250 and boost it some. The SWR is scooped out some there, gives them their tone but also takes away some frequencies, and with it, apparent volume right in the meat and potatoes range of a bass guitar.

If you're playing basement gigs, your 410 should be plenty, it's your guitar players who need to scale back their rigs by half at a bare minimum. 50 watts and a 212 can still be insanely loud for a guitar rig.

Good point. I already tell them, "I didn't pick your rigs so don't pick mine." There is really one main hold out whose opinion I really do trust and so does everyone else. I just think he's afraid I'm putting the bands sound at risk. Ultimately I'll do what I want but, his concerns have made me think about this much harder than I normally do. I'm usually quite impulsive with my gear purchases.

What cab do you use with you sm400 for medium sized gigs?

I should have been more clear. I play as many clubs as I do house parties. Most don't do much in the way of PA support.

I've pretty much been running the sm400 flat because it sounded good out of the box. So, I plan to experiment with EQ options once I find out what I'm missing.

I guess I could also get another cab to run with the 410 but, I much prefer single cab setups. No real reason, just a personal thing.

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by rbonner

Just playing 18's isn't an answer, and I sure wouldn't buy the bag end untried. You have to hear this stuff. I have a pair of AMPEG SVT-215e's here and really like the whomp. They have a bit more bottom end than the 810's and have a reasonable topend too. They are just slightly down on total volume, but we're splitting hairs at that point. But I wouldn't sell them to somebody without hearing them first. BOB

Totally. I want to test run this next cab because I want to be sure its right.

The 301 IS an 18" folded horn speaker but, that's way different from a direct radiating 18" which I was looking at. I was blown away with how quick that mesa 18" was. It was a bit honky until I cut some mids. So I am expecting to have to EQ the heck out of a regular 18" cab. But, it did sound pretty good.

[PDK]

You could try a 6x10 Genzbenz xb2 or an ampeg 6x10hlf.

[will33]

My cabs are DIY homebrew stuff but I use a 212 with eminence neo's in it for larger gigs/outdoor stuff. Haven't really run into anything where that couldn't get the job done. If that's not enough, you really should be run through the PA. If that's not an option, add more speakers to the bass stack.

[LanEvo]

Sounds like your band members are more concerned with image than performance in this case. Seems like they're looking for huge walls of amps. As you've noticed, that's generally not the right choice for small venues.

Originally Posted by father of fires

They say its like them bringing their 15w practice amps to a gig. They see my acoustic as a pro gigging rig and the SWR as a practice rig.

That's just silly. There are surely far more "professional" bassists who have rocked the SWR SM400/Goliath rig over the years than the Acoustic 370/301 (not a slam against the Acoustic, BTW). The SM400/Goliath is one of the all-time classic rigs.

Originally Posted by father of fires

No one complains at practice but, when I try to bring it to shows they give me hell. All of a sudden the amp magically doesn't sound good to them.

It's true that SWR gear generally doesn't have as much low-end rumble as many other amps...and it'll never keep up with the 370/301 in that regard. Also, all the SWR gear I've played tends to have some scoop to the low mids, which is fine when playing solo but can make the sound drop out a bit on stage.

After many years staying loyal to my original SWR Red Head combo, I finally gave up on it because I realized the "SWR sound" wasn't really working for me. I wanted deep lows, pronounced mids, and soft highs...which is basically the exact opposite of SWR!

Originally Posted by father of fires

So what cabs do you guys think I should look at?

If you really want something small, portable, and modern that also has a vintage vibe, I would check out the Aguilar DB-112 or DB-112NT (same as the DB-112, but without the tweeter):




That'll give you the classic tweed/Tolex cover & cloth grille look with modern performance. And a pair of these would make a sweet "mini rig of doom."

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by will33

My cabs are DIY homebrew stuff but I use a 212 with eminence neo's in it for larger gigs/outdoor stuff. Haven't really run into anything where that couldn't get the job done. If that's not enough, you really should be run through the PA. If that's not an option, add more speakers to the bass stack.

I have been thinking about building something. This makes my options limitless. I've looked at the BFM stuff and my buddy is an engineer at speaker company so, he has worked up a couple of designs for me. I'm just don't have the room to build something right now (living with the in-laws while I save up for a new house).

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by PDK

You could try a 6x10 Genzbenz xb2 or an ampeg 6x10hlf.

That is another option. I just need to find one that I can test drive.

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by LanEvo

Sounds like your band members are more concerned with image than performance in this case. Seems like they're looking for huge walls of amps. As you've noticed, that's generally not the right choice for small venues.

That's just silly. There are surely far more "professional" bassists who have rocked the SWR SM400/Goliath rig over the years than the Acoustic 370/301 (not a slam against the Acoustic, BTW). The SM400/Goliath is one of the all-time classic rigs.

It's true that SWR gear generally doesn't have as much low-end rumble as many other amps...and it'll never keep up with the 370/301 in that regard. Also, all the SWR gear I've played tends to have some scoop to the low mids, which is fine when playing solo but can make the sound drop out a bit on stage.

After many years staying loyal to my original SWR Red Head combo, I finally gave up on it because I realized the "SWR sound" wasn't really working for me. I wanted deep lows, pronounced mids, and soft highs...which is basically the exact opposite of SWR!

If you really want something small, portable, and modern that also has a vintage vibe, I would check out the Aguilar DB-112 or DB-112NT (same as the DB-112, but without the tweeter):




That'll give you the classic tweed/Tolex cover & cloth grille look with modern performance. And a pair of these would make a sweet "mini rig of doom."

So true. I pick on them about being stuck on image but, they swear it's only about the sound. I call B.S.

Haven't thought about these either. I have big cabs stuck in my head.

Keep them coming.

I am building a hot-rodded fender deluxe (2x6l6) and those tweed 1x12's would look smoking hot with it.

[lbwdog]

Your scenario sounds far removed from a group of pro musicians, and more like a bunch of garage band squabblers. Judging by your first post, you're not a dummy who wouldn't know a good sound if it bit him in the arse. Sounds to me like they're placing more emphasis on image than music.

I'd say get a rig that you know sounds good and tell the complainers to jump off a cliff!

[Scottgun]

Sounds like you need to have a sit down session with your band and figure what the cab is for in the first place. When you go live, your rig is really just a monitor and it's the soundman that is in charge of making sure everyone can hear. Since they hate stage volume anyway, then ideally you would just show up with a SansAmp DI and leave all those heavy cabs at home.

But it sounds like their real beef is not your sound, but that your rig doesn't look metally enough to be respectable. Well, if it's just about the looks, bring some big but lightweight fake cabinets.

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by lbwdog

Your scenario sounds far removed from a group of pro musicians, and more like a bunch of garage band squabblers. Judging by your first post, you're not a dummy who wouldn't know a good sound if it bit him in the arse. Sounds to me like they're placing more emphasis on image than music.

I'd say get a rig that you know sounds good and tell the complainers to jump off a cliff!

This is where I'm headed. I didn't start the band but, they say it wasn't going anywhere until I joined and brought the Acoustic with me. Maybe it really is part of who we are but, I don't get obsessed with gear. I like to mix it up. Sometimes I do something stupid (well a lot of times) and sometimes I hit a home run.

[lbwdog]

They would probably laugh at those 1x12 cabs too.
You could always get a GK 700RB II and two Neo 212s. If they laugh at that, show 'em a picture of Flea onstage. .....or do they not respect him either?

[topper]

With the Acoustic you say:

I can barely hear myself on stage and the audience complains I'm to loud.

and:

I just think he's afraid I'm putting the bands sound at risk.

Sounds like the Acoustic rig is what's putting the band's sound at risk. Reassure your band mates that the band's sound is your top priority and then do what you want.

[NKBassman]

I love my Mesa Powerhouse 1200. A little heavy, but more than worth it's weight in tone.

They also make a killer 2x15, and I've heard their 4x12 is great as well.

[father of fires]

Originally Posted by Scottgun

Sounds like you need to have a sit down session with your band and figure what the cab is for in the first place. When you go live, your rig is really just a monitor and it's the soundman that is in charge of making sure everyone can hear. Since they hate stage volume anyway, then ideally you would just show up with a SansAmp DI and leave all those heavy cabs at home.

But it sounds like their real beef is not your sound, but that your rig doesn't look metally enough to be respectable. Well, if it's just about the looks, bring some big but lightweight fake cabinets.

I will say this. We played a show with a band last month and I wanted to bring the SWR because I knew there was a sound guy with a nice PA. I was talked out of it and I ended up being glad. The band that opened the show was incredible and had very impressive gear. They were also the best band of the night. Then each successive band had smaller rigs and did not sound nearly as "BIG" as the first band. I would have been pretty emasculated had I brought the SWR. So, there is something to them wanting a big cab and I agree. I know Pros shouldn't care about that but, I'm not a pro. Just a garage band that plays a ton and barely breaks even.

People will judge you whether you care or not and I guess my band doesn't want to seem puny compared to some of the awesome bands we play with.

And yes sound guys hate us. Were one of the way-to-loud-to-mic-anything-but-the-vocals-and-kick kind of bands.