Cab Builders Who Use Light Plywood

[dawind99]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I figured out a solution that works well. Since I've got tons of epoxy around I tried rolling a coat of epoxy over the poplar ply. Sanded it and it was a much harder surface than Baltic. Duratex and you've got a light but durable cab.

Great idea. How bad's the odor Mike? I'd try it outside but it's snowing up here now. And my dust collection is just that.

[dawind99]

Originally Posted by will33

Good points here. Tradeoffs all around, like any build/design.

Also economies of scale. A large company would send their design to some other large shop/mill that will tool up and make things hundreds at a time. A private builder doesn't have such luxuries. "Tooling up" for them might mean having enough of the same order to set the table saw and cut 4 pieces instead of 1. They instead can offer personal attention to detail, a more vested interest in the product, and generally do "less compromised" designs. Not that all big company stuff is compromised, maybe not the right choice of word there, but less corners will be cut in the interest of reducing material cost, labor time, etc., to absolutely maximize profit everywhere possible.

Word.

[top028]

GREAT THREAD!!

[rpatter]

Originally Posted by Type-55

Don only uses 1/2 baltic birch.
I'm trying to get a 30lb. cab.

I don't know if anyone has answered this or not, but Don does not "only use 1/2 baltic birch". He uses whatever quality lightweight plywood is available. He used to be able to get some very light 3/4" South American plywood from a local supplier when he was here in Michigan and I'm pretty sure he used Sandeply when the South American stuff started getting heavy. Now that he's in the Pacific Northwest he has access to a lot of different lightweight plywoods.

Ralf

[Type-55]

Originally Posted by rpatter

I don't know if anyone has answered this or not, but Don does not "only use 1/2 baltic birch". He uses whatever quality lightweight plywood is available. He used to be able to get some very light 3/4" South American plywood from a local supplier when he was here in Michigan and I'm pretty sure he used Sandeply when the South American stuff started getting heavy. Now that he's in the Pacific Northwest he has access to a lot of different lightweight plywoods.

Ralf

I've sent him 2 emails asking if he uses Italian Poplar or any light weight ply and he said it is not available. Baltic Birch only for neo cabs.

[rpatter]

Originally Posted by Type-55

I've sent him 2 emails asking if he uses Italian Poplar or any light weight ply and he said it is not available. Baltic Birch only for neo cabs.

I just spoke with Don this afternoon. He is using Birch, but it's a Canadian Birch which is much lighter than Baltic Birch.

Ralf

[Type-55]

Originally Posted by rpatter

I just spoke with Don this afternoon. He is using Birch, but it's a Canadian Birch which is much lighter than Baltic Birch.

Ralf

He did not mention that when I emailed him.
He said birch and I assumed he meant baltic.
Thanks for the update.

[Mike Arnopol]

Originally Posted by dawind99

Great idea. How bad's the odor Mike? I'd try it outside but it's snowing up here now. And my dust collection is just that.

The odor is no problem. No volatiles. Checked it out and researched it before I started this composite craziness. Now polyester resins are dangerous but epoxy is ok. No thickening agents---I keep the epoxy resins warm (it thins them) and then mix with the hardener. It makes it thinner but it sets up faster. I'm going for as thin as possible so it penetrates. Random orbit with a relatively coarse grit. On my composite cabs my final sanding is with 36 or 40 grit! The epoxy is so hard that you'd be sanding all day with 120. The weird thing is that the surface feels like you sanded with 120---or higher. Since I'm using Duratex with a decent amount of texture I probably go overboard with the sanding!

The surface is a lot harder than baltic when I'm done. US Composites is half the price of the other epoxy guys. 75 cabs so far with no problems. Don't get the faster setting hardener---it makes the resin a bit thicker.

5 minutes to roll it and 10 to sand. Oh---get rollers made for epoxy too. oh--and it might add 3 ounces to the cab weight.

[astack]

Thanks for the tips, Mike!

[fdeck]

From what I can tell, "Baltic Birch" is a trademark. So it seems possible to me that there are other makers of birch plywood, who achieve equal quality.

[dawind99]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

The odor is no problem. No volatiles. Checked it out and researched it before I started this composite craziness. Now polyester resins are dangerous but epoxy is ok. No thickening agents---I keep the epoxy resins warm (it thins them) and then mix with the hardener. It makes it thinner but it sets up faster. I'm going for as thin as possible so it penetrates. Random orbit with a relatively coarse grit. On my composite cabs my final sanding is with 36 or 40 grit! The epoxy is so hard that you'd be sanding all day with 120. The weird thing is that the surface feels like you sanded with 120---or higher. Since I'm using Duratex with a decent amount of texture I probably go overboard with the sanding!

The surface is a lot harder than baltic when I'm done. US Composites is half the price of the other epoxy guys. 75 cabs so far with no problems. Don't get the faster setting hardener---it makes the resin a bit thicker.

5 minutes to roll it and 10 to sand. Oh---get rollers made for epoxy too. oh--and it might add 3 ounces to the cab weight.

Thanks Mike. I've been working with some different polymers, one that's a urethane/cyanoacrylate formulation. Works great on the flat and builds up, self levels, moisture cure, no VOCs and I
was told mask not needed. I wasn't feeling that way after an hour or so working with it No smell, but? I'm going to try some tomorrow with a fan in the window, I'll let you know how it goes.

[astack]

Hmm could one use epoxy as final finish? Acts like a heavy duty polyurethane? Doesn't work for FG, but with ply don't see why not. Maybe find some that doesn't discolor.

[dawind99]

Originally Posted by fdeck

From what I can tell, "Baltic Birch" is a trademark. So it seems possible to me that there are other makers of birch plywood, who achieve equal quality.

Baltic is not a trademark, but is generally used to describe Russian/Finnish birch ply. There is a HUGE difference in birch plywoods. In the US we do not have the climate or the birch stands that are native to Finland and Russia. Here if you want to find swamp or wetlands in the North you look for birch trees. In Finland the trees grow differently. They are cultivated, grow much larger, straighter, and are a significantly more dense wood. Ours on the whole are very pulpy and do not have the same lifespan. In Canada they should be able to grow a similar product as Baltic. I am not aware that they do. Italian Poplar ply isn't remotely in the same realm strength wise. And, I've worked with both. There are many other choices out there; the South American, African, and Indonesian "Mahogany/Luan" families of ply. Unfortunately their grading is not established which adds up to a very inconsistent product as all that have worked with them will attest.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by dawind99

Baltic is not a trademark, but is generally used to describe Russian/Finnish birch ply. There is a HUGE difference in birch plywoods. In the US we do not have the climate or the birch stands that are native to Finland and Russia. Here if you want to find swamp or wetlands in the North you look for birch trees. In Finland the trees grow differently. They are cultivated, grow much larger, straighter, and are a significantly more dense wood. Ours on the whole are very pulpy and do not have the same lifespan. In Canada they should be able to grow a similar product as Baltic. I am not aware that they do. Italian Poplar ply isn't remotely in the same realm strength wise. And, I've worked with both. There are many other choices out there; the South American, African, and Indonesian "Mahogany/Luan" families of ply. Unfortunately their grading is not established which adds up to a very inconsistent product as all that have worked with them will attest.

This ^^^^^

We've some luck with a South American 7 ply, and it's certainly lighter than BB. You have to be willing to throw a few panels out from time to time. I once sourced a local 'Okoume' that was just dreadful...weak, super thin outer ply and curled up the instant I started cutting panels...We do whatever the customer wants, within reason, but the BB sure is good stuff

[Type-55]

Originally Posted by dawind99

Baltic is not a trademark, but is generally used to describe Russian/Finnish birch ply. There is a HUGE difference in birch plywoods. In the US we do not have the climate or the birch stands that are native to Finland and Russia. Here if you want to find swamp or wetlands in the North you look for birch trees. In Finland the trees grow differently. They are cultivated, grow much larger, straighter, and are a significantly more dense wood. Ours on the whole are very pulpy and do not have the same lifespan. In Canada they should be able to grow a similar product as Baltic. I am not aware that they do. Italian Poplar ply isn't remotely in the same realm strength wise. And, I've worked with both. There are many other choices out there; the South American, African, and Indonesian "Mahogany/Luan" families of ply. Unfortunately their grading is not established which adds up to a very inconsistent product as all that have worked with them will attest.

This is good stuff.

[Type-55]

How would you rate Canadian birch in terms of weight and strength?

[Mike Arnopol]

I've been very happy with Italian Poplar. The only area where durability is an issue is the soft surface. Which I've been able to overcome by rolling a coat of epoxy. Negligible weight gain and a harder surface than birch. At half the weight. One pain in the arse I've had with some of the Baltic and Finnish birch is that they're often a noticeable amount out of square.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I've been very happy with Italian Poplar. The only area where durability is an issue is the soft surface. Which I've been able to overcome by rolling a coat of epoxy. Negligible weight gain and a harder surface than birch. At half the weight. One pain in the arse I've had with some of the Baltic and Finnish birch is that they're often a noticeable amount out of square.

We've been pretty lucky there, but they often are out of square...fortunately the CNC machine squares it up before the cutting starts

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by dawind99

Baltic is not a trademark, but is generally used to describe Russian/Finnish birch ply.

...

Thanks for filling me in. That's quite helpful. I had always assumed that birch is birch.

[fdeck]

One of the hard lessons I've learned, doing some woodworking and projects around the house is: Never trust anything to be square or plumb.