Cab, on the floor or on top of road case?

[PBass2004]

Is it best to sit your 410 Cab on top of your road case elevated when playing live or on the floor?

Would you lose any bottom end if on top of a road case?

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by PBass2004

Is it best to sit your 410 Cab on top of your road case elevated when playing live or on the floor?

Elevated.

Originally Posted by PBass2004

Would you lose any bottom end if on top of a road case?

Not any useful bottom end.

Regards
Sam

[Sundogue]

It's a myth that you lose low end when your cab is on top of something.

The effect is real enough to believe it though. But all that is happening is that with the cab up higher, you now can hear the mids and highs better because you have no ears on the back of your knees.

Lows are omnidirectional meaning it matters little where the source is. Mids and Highs are VERY directional. With the cab on the floor you just can't hear them as well so the low end only appears to be stronger. The lows are actually the same up higher as they are on the floor.

With regards to meaningful low end, there isn't a 410 on the market that can produce any real low end anyway. The best it can do is put out upper bass/lo-mids above 100Hz anyway. So where you put your cab makes absolutely no difference to the low end. If you want meaningful low end, you need a cab capable of producing it in the first place. If you think your 410 cab can put out real low end (as in sub 100Hz), again, it's a perception thing...not reality. But perception is reality because your brain will fill in what's actually missing.

[tekdiver500ft]

While it is true that bass is omnidirectional, that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter where it is placed. You do lose some usable bass volume when the cab is raised. You don't lose a lot, though, so it can be a pretty academic discussion. The critical factor isn't the nature of bass soundwaves, though, it is the design of the cabinet itself. Various cabs are designed to be located differently to produce optimal response. I would suggest looking at the owner's manual and/or contacting the manufacturer to determine where they designed the cab to work best.

There are plenty of 410 cabs that produce outstanding bottom end, too. The Ampeg PN410 is pretty much flat from 38Hz to 10KHz, for example.

[Smokin' Toaster]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

It's a myth that you lose low end when your cab is on top of something.

The effect is real enough to believe it though. But all that is happening is that with the cab up higher, you now can hear the mids and highs better because you have no ears on the back of your knees.

Lows are omnidirectional meaning it matters little where the source is. Mids and Highs are VERY directional. With the cab on the floor you just can't hear them as well so the low end only appears to be stronger. The lows are actually the same up higher as they are on the floor.

With regards to meaningful low end, there isn't a 410 on the market that can produce any real low end anyway. The best it can do is put out upper bass/lo-mids above 100Hz anyway. So where you put your cab makes absolutely no difference to the low end. If you want meaningful low end, you need a cab capable of producing it in the first place. If you think your 410 cab can put out real low end (as in sub 100Hz), again, it's a perception thing...not reality. But perception is reality because your brain will fill in what's actually missing.

Here's my top 5 important factors in rating cabinets, Plus #99:

1 - my ears
2 - my ears
3 - my ears
4 - my ears
5 - Mfg. specs

99 - what others say

All due respect, my ears tell me you are not correct about 410 cabinets. I believe them.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by tekdiver500ft

While it is true that bass is omnidirectional, that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter where it is placed. You do lose some usable bass volume when the cab is raised. You don't lose a lot, though, so it can be a pretty academic discussion. The critical factor isn't the nature of bass soundwaves, though, it is the design of the cabinet itself. Various cabs are designed to be located differently to produce optimal response. I would suggest looking at the owner's manual and/or contacting the manufacturer to determine where they designed the cab to work best.

There are plenty of 410 cabs that produce outstanding bottom end, too. The Ampeg PN410 is pretty much flat from 38Hz to 10KHz, for example.

Nope. Sorry...ain't possible. Hate to burst your bubble (not) but for a 410 cab to produce strong low end (sub 100Hz) those four tens would need to be in a cab almost twice the size.

Problem is, nobody wants to haul a cab the size of an 810 fridge, but only loaded with four speakers. Not that those four tens could handle real low end in the first place. Plus, while you would gain more low end, you'd lose volume in the upper bass/lo-mids, which is what most people think is low end anyway, and actually prefer because they most likely have never heard a cab that can produce clean sub 100Hz.

The thing is, when you put too many speakers into too small a cab, the effect is boosted upper bass/lo-mids at the expense of true low end.

Sorry, but that's the physics of it. However, if you perceive there to be a lot of "real" low end then it doesn't really matter, does it?

And no, you don't lose ANY low end when raising your cab. You only think you do because with it raised the mids and highs are more easily heard.

I'm not going to debate it further. Believe it, or don't. You can change your mind, but you can't change the laws of physics. It's like saying you have a car that goes faster than what the speedometer says it's going. Yet you keep saying "I don't care what the the speedometer says, my car goes real fast." If it's fast enough for you, that's all that matters.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

5 - Mfg. specs

Manufacturer specs are pure BS and anyone with any knowledge on the subject knows this is true.

[Smokin' Toaster]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Nope. Sorry...ain't possible. Hate to burst your bubble (not) but for a 410 cab to produce strong low end (sub 100Hz) those four tens would need to be in a cab almost twice the size.

Regardless of cabinet design? Or are you assuming an infinite baffle (sealed) cabinet? If so, i would tend to agree with your observation about cabinet size.

I'd like her Bill Fitzmaurice's take on this discussion.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

Regardless of cabinet design? Or are you assuming an infinite baffle (sealed) cabinet? If so, i would tend to agree with your observation about cabinet size.

I'd like her Bill Fitzmaurice's take on this discussion.

Look. I've got 10" BP102's, capable of putting out real 30Hz low end. But the only way they'd do that is in a cab much larger than I'd want to haul.

And so it is with every other cab designer and player out there. We want volume, but we don't want to haul "empty space". We want speakers dammit, and lots of them, in the smallest cab we can handle.

Thus we get artificial low end. And that's all well and good. Nothing wrong with strong upper bass/lo-mids. It's where most think the low end is because that's all that's out there for all but the most expensive cabs few can afford. Unless they build their own.

There are three things we want in a cab. Small, Loud and Low. But you can only have two. So pick two. You want it Loud in the Low end? Then the cab has to be big with lots of power. If you want it Small and Loud, then you have to give up the Lows. If you want it Small and lots of Low End, then it won't be loud elsewhere. That's why some are going to two and three way cabs...to get it Loud in the Low end AND have it be loud in the mids. But there again the size goes up a bit AND you need lots of power. But you won't find all three in one cab unless you want to put a second mortgage on your house.

Cab design is about compromises on Small, Loud and Low. Turns out most players are happy with Small and Loud and are willing to give up real sub 100Hz lows so the upper bass (above 100Hz) can provide enough of that "low end" to be satisfied with it. So that's what manufacturers produce for the public.

Sorry about the thread derailment. But it is important to understand that you do not lose any low end (as in 100Hz and above) by putting your cab up higher.

[Dirk Diggler]

Try using an Auralex Gramma pad under your cab, you will get much more consistent low end from venue to venue. Uncoupling your low end from the stage/room is a great way to clean up your low end. I would agree about putting the cabinet up as the high end is much easier to hear with your ears and not your calves.
Dirk

[JSK5String]

While this is an interesting discussion, I'd ask the OP if he's getting any PA support for his rig. If the answer is yes, then the question is a mute point, isn't it? Put your rig where you can hear it best, because that's all it is at that point, a stage monitor. If the answer is no, then let the debate rage...

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by JSK5String

While this is an interesting discussion, I'd ask the OP if he's getting any PA support for his rig. If the answer is yes, then the question is a mute point, isn't it? Put your rig where you can hear it best, because that's all it is at that point, a stage monitor. If the answer is no, then let the debate rage...

I agree. Since he will gain the ability to hear the mids and highs better and isn't losing any low end by putting it up higher, he should put it up where he can hear it and not worry about anything else.

[nashman]

That would be a moot point. If it was a mute point - there would be no sound

[Mike Arnopol]

Where the cab is placed is like a tone control. On the floor you get coupling and reinforcement from the floor. Which may be a good or bad thing, depending on the room. If I'm playing a concert hall or outdoor concert with pa support I'll have the cab raised because I need definition and I'm getting plenty of lows from the pa. In a club I might be on the floor because the coupling gives more "thump" which I need to FEEL. Raise the cab up and you need to boost the bass to achieve the same "thump".
Problem is with most bass amps if you boost the bass you're not just boosting the low bass, but some mid bass too. Now, I'm into parametric eq, so when I have a cab off the floor and boost the bass, I'm getting too much 120 hz to 180 hz. So I have to use a parametric to take away some mid bass. Because too much mid bass makes your sound thicker, but boomy . I personally like the feel of the cab coupling with the floor in a lot of situations. I like to feel that I'm moving air.
For me, the optimum situation would be biamping, so that the lows are on the floor and the mids on up are elevated so that you get great definition without boom. I'm working on a portable setup to do this using a small DSP and a light class D amp with 2 power amps built in.

[Eric Moesle]

I keep my cabs raised every chance I get. My ears are on my head, not behind my knees.

The closer the cabs are to my ears, the lower I can keep the volume and still hear myself clearly. Lower stage volume makes the soundman happy and gives a better mix out front.

[GreggBummer]

I'm not a sound engineer or anything, so this is "man in street" point of view.

I try to put my cab on top of something when I rehearse or practice. This puts the sound source closer to my ear and allows me to keep the volume at a reasonable level. This is good practice for hearing conservation, although it doesn't replace the need for earplugs (different thread).

I have never elevated a cab to ear level for a performance... although I have put my cabs on chairs or boxes for damp outdoor shows. If there is a difference in a live performance setting, It doesn't stick in my memory. I push half my sound through the PA anyway.

For what it is worth, I once had a sound guy turn my cab around to face a corner of a room. He said "trust me". It FILLED the room up. It sounded great... in that bar. I have never been able to reproduce the effect in another room. I can't explain it... but it works that way sometimes. Maybe a guy with a acoustic engineering degree can explain the technical end of it... but all I hear is "Big juju. Much magic."

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

It's a myth that you lose low end when your cab is on top of something.

That depends what it's on top of. If it's a solid faced item like a case you don't lose anything. If it's not solid, like a stand, you lose some boundary coupling in the midbass, 100 to 200 Hz depending on the height off the floor. Even with a stand you don't lose coupling below 100 Hz unless the cab is at least 2.8 feet off the floor.

[4Mal]

Hopefully, your EQ can easily replace so of the low end that *may* be lost. Getting you cab up towards your head does in fact let you play closer to the cab and hear better - on small stages, in small rooms this can make your evening as you can hear while not pasting people against the wall.

IME - keeping your stage and overall volume in line is one of hte best ways to get asked back into a club ...

On large stages with FOH support losing that low end coupling can also be really benficial as you conflict with the FOH less. There are plenty of folks who seem to need *big, juicy* tone to be happy on stage, find it inspirational - I can understand it and even like it but have trained myself away from needing it.

What I want to hear are nice clean and present vocal monitors. Maybe with some guitar in them. If you're vocal oriented as my bands are - lot's of 3 part harmony - absolutely nothing will make you sound better out front. I want to hear myself, but stage volume wise, it's definately in the background fro me...

Anyway - I say yeah, get that cab up off the floor and if you haven't already - sub's for the PA if you're providing your own.

[tekdiver500ft]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

That depends what it's on top of. If it's a solid faced item like a case you don't lose anything. If it's not solid, like a stand, you lose some boundary coupling in the midbass, 100 to 200 Hz depending on the height off the floor. Even with a stand you don't lose coupling below 100 Hz unless the cab is at least 2.8 feet off the floor.

Thanks, Bill. I'm glad there's someone else here who understands this. I may have phrased it correctly, but that didn't change the fact that you generally lose low frequencies when you raise the cab off the ground (although, as you point out, there are ways to ameliorate that effect).

BTW, my guitarist's SPL meter registered a mere 2dB drop from 55Hz to 40Hz on the aforementioned Ampeg cab at six feet, and a total drop of 3dB from 100Hz to 40Hz. That's flat enough for my purposes, and is considerably better than I've seen (I haven't tested a ton of them) from any 115 cab.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by tekdiver500ft

BTW, my guitarist's SPL meter registered a mere 2dB drop from 55Hz to 40Hz on the aforementioned Ampeg cab at six feet, and a total drop of 3dB from 100Hz to 40Hz. That's flat enough for my purposes, and is considerably better than I've seen (I haven't tested a ton of them) from any 115 cab.

Meters don't tell the whole story, as what they'll read depends on where they are relative to both the cab and the floor. The result of lifting the cab will also be less pronounced the further away from the cab the measurement is taken at, and by the same token the distance you're listening at. With sufficient distance you won't see any difference, and for that matter it can be louder at some frequencies as you get further away from other boundary null issues.