Cabinet confusion....

[CTC564]

Why do several different manufacturers encourage different type cabs (ex. 1x15 with a 4x10) for a "full range sound" when it seems that most here on TB seem to DISCOURAGE going that route?

Is it true that a 1x15 cab is better for a low B string than a 4x10???

[B-string]

It "looks" cool, a 410 sitting on a 115.

No a 115 cab is not any better than a 410 for a low B string.

[brendanbassist]

Originally Posted by CTC564

Why do several different manufacturers encourage different type cabs (ex. 1x15 with a 4x10) for a "full range sound" when it seems that most here on TB seem to DISCOURAGE going that route?

So people will buy 2 cabs.

Is it true that a 1x15 cab is better for a low B string than a 4x10???

Nope.

[will33]

It's because they're in business to move product, ie: sell stuff. If it makes sense to someone to have a big speaker on the bottom and more smaller speakers on the top, they'll be happy to sell you that.

Like I mentioned in some other thread, it's no different than pro athletes and shoes. That may have been something about "what rig your favorite bass playing hero plays", but the concept is the same.

[winegamd]

Yes, generally it is true that a 15 will reproduce lower notes better than a 10. However, manufacturers can design a speaker with specifications to meet what ever needs they desire along with altering cabinet designs to further meet their requirements. I would suggest you go to the eminence web site and look at the response graphs of different speakers. This will better explain the difference in driver size far better and faster than one can on here.

[brendanbassist]

Originally Posted by winegamd

... I would suggest you go to the eminence web site and look at the response graphs of different speakers. This will better explain the difference in driver size far better and faster than one can on here.

How about these 3, all speakers for designed bass guitar:
Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

Note that for these 3, resonant frequency is proportional to speaker size, and excursion is inversely proportional to speaker size. So the smaller the speaker, the better it is for a 5 string? You can't generalize sound based on size (except for beaming, I suppose).

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by brendanbassist

Note that for these 3, resonant frequency is proportional to speaker size, and excursion is inversely proportional to speaker size. So the smaller the speaker, the better it is for a 5 string? You can't generalize sound based on size (except for beaming, I suppose).

Right. Beaming is the only thing you can predict based on speaker size alone.

[will33]

You're on the right track, just know fs is one of 20+ different things to consider about a speaker, before it even finds it's way into a box.

[brendanbassist]

Originally Posted by will33

You're on the right track, just know fs is one of 20+ different things to consider about a speaker, before it even finds it's way into a box.

Sure, but I never said fs was the only thing that affected a speaker's performance, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[will33]

Originally Posted by brendanbassist

Sure, but I never said fs was the only thing that affected a speaker's performance, so I'm not sure what your point is.

A larger structure / more mass/area will naturally have lower resonance, and move more air per a same distance stroke as a smaller unit but that's one of many things to consider. For an over-obvious example of big cone/loud/beamy/"sweet tone" vs. small cone/huge real bass/low spl/lacking harmonics by itself, compare a 15" EV 15L, vs. Eminence BP-102.

Each really good at what they're good at, but defy the usual misconceptions.

[winegamd]

Out of those three, yes, the 10 is better suited as a bass speaker, but then that was specifically designed as a replacement speaker for the SVT 8x10. Now let's compare it to the KAPPALITE 3012LF and the BASSLITE C2515. All of these are within a couple Hz in resonant freq. The 3012 has 3mm more excursion, so it will play lower before the onset of distortion, and it is almost 3db more efficient so it will sound twice as loud with the same power and handles more than twice the power. Now let's look at the 2515. It's excursion is a little less, but its sensitivity is 6db higher so will sound 4 times as loud with the same power. Again these are just specs on paper. The Fs is also the point where impedance peaks and not necessarily the 3db down point in response. This means that the speaker will play that low, but how loud it is at that point is another story. Modeling these in a box design program will show the real difference. Also, eminence has box recommendations with response graphs for most of their speakers. I would post them but I am on my phone.

[canadian*eh]

Originally Posted by winegamd

Now let's compare it to the KAPPALITE 3012LF and the BASSLITE C2515. All of these are within a couple Hz in resonant freq. The 3012 has 3mm more excursion, so it will play lower before the onset of distortion, and it is almost 3db more efficient so it will sound twice as loud with the same power and handles more than twice the power.

Did I hear someone Say fEARful???? Check it out fEARful™ enclosures for bass/drums/keys Check it out it will answer so of you question!!

[Joe Louvar]

+1 to all of the above.
But it also seems like everyone is trying to sell their loudspeakers here - be it the small independents or individual DIY type owners. And one of the very obviously things the individual DIY type owners try to do is discredit their competition and expressly the professional commercial companies and they’re masters of confusion like complaining about specifications when their own computer generated specs, grafts, charts, and plots (no matter how pretty and colorful) are at best ballpark or fudged results without any real or professional testing.

[::::BASSIST::::]

Originally Posted by Joe Louvar

+1 to all of the above.
But it also seems like everyone is trying to sell their loudspeakers here - be it the small independents or individual DIY type owners. And one of the very obviously things the individual DIY type owners try to do is discredit their competition and expressly the professional commercial companies and they’re masters of confusion like complaining about specifications when their own computer generated specs, grafts, charts, and plots (no matter how pretty and colorful) are at best ballpark or fudged results without any real or professional testing.

Sorry Joe, going to have to call you on this one. There is no benefit to the fEARful enthusiasts to argue for bassists to try these cabs... except one... to hope for something better.

Essentially, until you've tried one, how can you question their worth?

[::::BASSIST::::]

Is it true that a 1x15 cab is better for a low B string than a 4x10???

Not necessarily. Its all relative. Compare the UL410 to the bag end s15d or schroeder 15L and the UL will eat those cabs for breakfast in terms of low-end output. Then you have something like the Phil Jones Bass cabs which use multiple 5" drivers.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by winegamd

... and it is almost 3db more efficient so it will sound twice as loud with the same power...

Not quite. 3dB is twice the power; 10dB is approximately twice as loud.

[Bass Unique]

Originally Posted by 1n3

Not quite. 3dB is twice the power; 10dB is approximately twice as loud.

Agreed - it is generally accepted that 10 dB sound like a doubling or halving of volume. 3 dB is related to the power factor so a 3 dB more efficient speaker would only require half the power for the same volume.

Its worse than that as most speaker manufacturers quote the sensitivity in the midband (around 1 kHz) which is not relevant for bass levels. dont get hung up on sensitivity specs. This is why companies such as Barefaced loudspeakers use a low frequency sensitivity level as well as -3 , -6 and -10 roll off points which are more relevent to the low end.

Look for a large X max and you need a high Mms and low Fs on the speaker (which tends to kill the sensitivity at higher frequencies). 4 good tens would usually move more air than a 15. However, the 15 may sound warmer. A larger speaker would normally have more mass and more excursion so suited to the lowest notes. However, check out the volume displacement at X max and resonance if you want to go low and use a large box with extended bass shelf alignment. Just dont overdrive it!

A friend of mine once said " it does not matter how many tweeters you string together, you will still not get 20 Hz out of them...". Yes, Phil Jones is an exception to the rule - lots of long throw drivers can do the same job (although usually heavier!)

[tom-g]

Originally Posted by Joe Louvar

+1 to all of the above.
But it also seems like everyone is trying to sell their loudspeakers here - be it the small independents or individual DIY type owners. And one of the very obviously things the individual DIY type owners try to do is discredit their competition and expressly the professional commercial companies and they’re masters of confusion like complaining about specifications when their own computer generated specs, grafts, charts, and plots (no matter how pretty and colorful) are at best ballpark or fudged results without any real or professional testing.

I think you got that backwards.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by CTC564

Why do several different manufacturers encourage different type cabs (ex. 1x15 with a 4x10) for a "full range sound"

Because the average uninformed player thinks that it makes sense to mix different cabs and driver sizes almost every manufacturer gives them what they want, rather than risk losing sales.

it seems that most here on TB seem to DISCOURAGE going that route?

Those would be informed players.

Is it true that a 1x15 cab is better for a low B string than a 4x10???

The opposite is the case more often than not.

[Joe Louvar]

Originally posted by Joe Louvar

+1 to all of the above.
But it also seems like everyone is trying to sell their loudspeakers here - be it the small independents or individual DIY type owners. And one of the very obviously things the individual DIY type owners try to do is discredit their competition and expressly the professional commercial companies and they’re masters of confusion like complaining about specifications when their own computer generated specs, grafts, charts, and plots (no matter how pretty and colorful) are at best ballpark or fudged results without any real or professional testing.

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

Sorry Joe, going to have to call you on this one. There is no benefit to the fEARful enthusiasts to argue for bassists to try these cabs... except one... to hope for something better.

I think it’s great DIY enthusiasts are excited about their homebrew loudspeakers but The individual DIY type plan/kit salesmen here on TB who post pretty colorful computer generated grafts, charts, and plots without real professional test (as appose to IE Meyer Sound Meyer Sound : The Anechoic Chamber) and the DIY plan/kit salesmen don’t post the recommended amp power, sensitivity, and etc spec’s - but they are masters of computer generated ballpark fudged specs, confusion, smokescreens, mirrors, twisting terms used and discrediting their competition.

Essentially, until you've tried one, how can you question their worth?

The same way the greenboy, BFM, and etc here on TB question professional commercial loudspeakers and etc.

But, ::::BASSIST:::: I do respect your opinion and right to respectfully disagree.