Which cabs should I use?

wengr · #1 05-21-2011, 08:48 PM

Hello, I have an outdoor gig coming up soon. Classic rock power trio type thing. While I've been away from that for a while, I have alot of experience with these guys and I know it will be loud. I'm wondering which cab will give me the best chance of being able to keep up and be heard. I'll be running an LMII thru either an eden 410xlt 8 ohm, or a pair of aggie db112's 8ohm each for a total of 4ohm load. I can't AB this stuff, but from my experience with each I feel that the 410xlt, even recieving less wattage will allow more volume. Any advice appreciated.

allexcosta · #2 05-21-2011, 08:51 PM

Couple one DB112 with the 410XLT.

BurningSkies · #3 05-21-2011, 08:53 PM

Doing that will limit the output to what the 112 can handle. Most likely you'll get less clean headroom and volume by pairing the 4x10 and the 112.

TimmyP · #4 05-22-2011, 02:04 AM

Will you have a PA that can handle the bass? If so, a single 12 should do.

allexcosta · #5 05-22-2011, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Doing that will limit the output to what the 112 can handle. Most likely you'll get less clean headroom and volume by pairing the 4x10 and the 112.

I don't think that's the case at all...

It'd be 250W into a 4x10 plus 250W into a 1x12 versus 300W into a 4x10.

Of course the right thing to do is listen to both and decide, but doing a 4x10 plus a 1x12 is a better option IMO, since the 1x12 would handle the 250W no problem...

MuzikMan · #6 05-22-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Couple one DB112 with the 410XLT.

This really is the worst, most lopsided possible combination. Why would you suggest this?

allexcosta · #7 05-22-2011, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuzikMan

This really is the worst, most lopsided possible combination. Why would you suggest this?

Tell me why not...

MuzikMan · #8 05-22-2011, 06:15 AM

The db112 is far too quiet compared to the d410XLT to offer any useful contribution and it will only limit the output of the system due to its displacement limitations. Even if all of that didn't exist there is still the issue of comb filtering and the resulting unpredictability of output. You could actually lose volume due to cancellations.

allexcosta · #9 05-22-2011, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuzikMan

The db112 is far too quiet compared to the d410XLT to offer any useful contribution and it will only limit the output of the system due to its displacement limitations. Even if all of that didn't exist there is still the issue of comb filtering and the resulting unpredictability of output. You could actually lose volume due to cancellations.

I'll ask you a few questions:

- Is a 1x15" that different from a 1x12"?
- Is 250W at a 4x10 that different from 275W or so?
- Hows a classic GK800RB + 1x15 + 4x10 wired?
- Isn't there a lot of comb filtering happening in every full range stack out there?

To the OP: If you go for the 4x10 do you mind bringing the 1x12 to soundcheck to give us some hands-on experience on how it sounds? Thanks.

billfitzmaurice · #10 05-22-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyP

Will you have a PA that can handle the bass? If so, a single 12 should do.

Outdoors? Maybe if it's on a pole at head height and he's standing no more than two feet in front of it.
OP, to get the same stage volume outdoors as you're used to indoors you need twice the speaker set that you use indoors. If your usual rig indoors is a 410 then outdoors you'll need two 410s, the exception being if the 410 is overkill for the volume you usually run at indoors.
Adding a 112 to a 410 is a waste of time. Adding both 112s to the 410 would be worthwhile, though you'd need another amp to power them with.

RickenBoogie · #11 05-22-2011, 08:27 AM

again, the voice of reason^

Munjibunga · #12 05-22-2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I'll ask you a few questions:

- Is a 1x15" that different from a 1x12"?

Do you mean aside from the 56 percent larger surface area?

BurningSkies · #13 05-22-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Do you mean aside from the 56 percent larger surface area?

And on account of all 15's being different, in terms of power handling, tonal profile, x-max, etc?

BurningSkies · #14 05-22-2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I'll ask you a few questions:

- Is a 1x15" that different from a 1x12"?
- Is 250W at a 4x10 that different from 275W or so?
- Hows a classic GK800RB + 1x15 + 4x10 wired?
- Isn't there a lot of comb filtering happening in every full range stack out there?

To the OP: If you go for the 4x10 do you mind bringing the 1x12 to soundcheck to give us some hands-on experience on how it sounds? Thanks.

Alex, I've done the hands on experience for you in the past. I've played outdoor shows, and have done a 4x10 with a twelve underneath and have also done a 2x12 with a second 12 under it. I've run a 4x10 with a 15 under it too.

To answer your question, how is 250 different from 275 (or 350, or 500w for that matter)...not much. Almost unnoticeable. To really get a huge perceivable amount of extra volume you'll need more than a couple hundred extra watts.

But having the experience of trying a 12 under a number of amps, you're limiting your bigger cab ALWAYS by running it with a smaller single cabinet. It may not have as much to do with power handling as you think. It has much more to do with how much clean headroom (displacement limits) a speaker has. I found with all of the mismatched setups with a single 12 underneath that the single 12 starts to distort and screw up your sound well before you've hit any of the limits of the 4x10 or 2x12. When I did run these rigs (and especially outdoors), I almost always ended up unplugging the 12 because it was distorting while the other speaker wasn't even sweating. I could get more clean headroom and volume by running the single larger speaker.

Before I got the 'matched' speakers I use now, I did run a Schroeder 1212 with a single 15 (Berg HT115) underneath. It worked the best of all the mix and matched setups but still, when I found the limit of 'clean' it was the 15 that distorted before the 2x12.

MuzikMan · #15 05-22-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I'll ask you a few questions:

- Is a 1x15" that different from a 1x12"?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

- Is 250W at a 4x10 that different from 275W or so?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

- Hows a classic GK800RB + 1x15 + 4x10 wired?

Parallel I presume. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

- Isn't there a lot of comb filtering happening in every full range stack out there?

Yes. The more you can minimize this the better.

MuzikMan · #16 05-22-2011, 12:05 PM

OP - If you can throw the book at it and bring all of your cabs that would be great. But if you can't I personally would bring the 4x10. Bottom line is that the 4x10 is probably louder than both 1x12's combined.

BassmanPaul · #17 05-22-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Is a 1x15" that different from a 1x12"?

A 15" + a 4x10 is a bad pairing even in the best of times. The 15 will never be able to compete with a 4x10 in any way. Putting a single 12" instead of the 15 will just make matters even worse.

wengr · #18 05-22-2011, 07:02 PM

Hi guys and thanks for the helpful responces. To answers some questions. There will be 2 x 10 each side PA on a stick . It will help to distrubute some bass, but stage volume is a big issue. Concerning adding a singe db112, my feeling is that it would result in the destruction of the 112. The info about a general rule of double the amp for outdoors is good to know, thanks. I guess I could take all three cabs, but I still wonder if the excusion of the 12's will limit the whole rig. Really leaning toward the 410 and tell em to durn down, and it is what it is.

billfitzmaurice · #19 05-22-2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wengr

There will be 2 x 10 each side PA on a stick . It will help to distrubute some bass

No, it won't. That high off the ground you lose all bass ground plane reinforcement, so I would not overtax them by running bass through them. The same caveat that it takes twice as many bass cabs outdoors to reach the same level as indoors also applies to PA. Guitar'd players are the only ones who get away with not needing more cabs.

Munjibunga · #20 05-22-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

No, it won't. That high off the ground you lose all bass ground plane reinforcement, so I would not overtax them by running bass through them. The same caveat that it takes twice as many bass cabs outdoors to reach the same level as indoors also applies to PA. Guitar'd players are the only ones who get away with not needing more cabs.

Not to mention: