Can a Hartke compete?

[devilman666]

You can get used eden 4x10's cheap as well from the evil gc.

[Noosh]

I play in a modern hard rock/metal band and use a Hartke 3500 head and one 410XL cab for practice. I usually take 2 410XLs whem we do shows. A single 410 would probably do fine though.

My band dosent play at earsplitting levels mind you, but we still play loud enough that I dont feel comfortable not wearing earplugs. That said I've never turned the master volume past 3, for practice or shows. I see no reason why anyone playing anything less than stadiums or festivals would need anything louder. Even then I would expect youd have some sort of monitors, and definately PA support.

That said, I love the tone I get out of the head/cab combo. I would reccomend it to anyone.

[Matthijs]

Originally Posted by dsbass09

So now I have another question for you guys. The guy with the Hartke 3500 just cut me a deal. The head for $125 if my band gets our scrims (banner things on the sides that some bands use) at his print shop ( which we were going to do anyway). Let's say I have the 350 watt head and it isn't enough power. Can I add a power amp to it and run a bigger cab? I feel like 125 for that head is a pretty sweet deal.

So did you decide? If you haven't, my two cents is: go for the 3500, and use your money to find two matching 4*10's. The two 4*10's will give you a larger volume increase than a larger head will. The 3500's also have a reputation of being good reliable workhorses.

[kevteop]

I gigged an LH500 for a couple of years, they're great amps and surprisingly cheap. They go plenty loud enough to keep up with an un-amplified drummer. If your guitarists are going louder than an LH500 can keep up with then go join another band - on-stage levels will be unbearable and your band will never sound any good out front.

As for cabs, there are a lot of decent 2x12 solutions now that are both portable and very loud, but if you really want to go with an old-school 410 go ahead. Bear in mind though those older cab designs won't get as much SPL out of your amp as a more modern cab will. So if you find you can't get loud enough it's probably the cab that isn't very efficient - the 500w Hartke head is plenty loud.

I also have a HA3500 by the way, I keep it at home these days but again they are nice heads. Don't be put off by how cheap Hartke gear is, they make some good stuff.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by dsbass09

But will the Hartke LH500 keep up with the band? I would prefer to not spend 400 on a head because I'm on a moderately limited budget but I can always put in the extra hours at work if I need to.

Into 8 10's it will. That's what you'll need. Trying to cram tons of power into one small box(4x10) will just blow the box up. It's all about speakers. Lots of them. Or a couple of big ones. Gotta spread out the work.

[RobbieNuke]

I have used and liked Hartke speaker cabinets (4x10 aluminum drivers); I just don't own any at the moment. I have used and did not like a Hartke amp, the one I owned seemed lifeless and could not get any satisfactory bass guitar use from it.

The 4x10/1x15 set-up is a carryover from the bi-amp craze started in the 90's; when you used a crossover and two power amps. I had experimented with that set-up (using an Ampeg Isovent cabinet), but did not care for it. I occasionally mix-up cabinets (two 1x15 ported cabs with different drivers; or a 1x15 ported with a 1x15 folded horn), but do not bi-amp anymore. After playing bass for 20+ years in live bands I prefer using just one cabinet... but I have 8 cabinets to choose from!

Ampeg 8x10; Eden 4x10; Fender 2x15; Sunn 1x15 (2- one has an Altec, the other a JBL); Kustom 3x15; Sunn folded horn; Acoustic 4x15.

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Into 8 10's it will. That's what you'll need. Trying to cram tons of power into one small box(4x10) will just blow the box up. It's all about speakers. Lots of them. Or a couple of big ones. Gotta spread out the work.

Even the cheap old Hartke Transporter 410s were rated for 300w into 8 ohms. The Ashdown MAG cabs are 450w into 8 ohms. So with a head rated at 500w into 4 ohms if you're just running an 8 ohm cab you are unlikely to blow anything up.

You would be better off with a 4 ohm cab though to get the most out of your amp.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by kevteop

Even the cheap old Hartke Transporter 410s were rated for 300w into 8 ohms. The Ashdown MAG cabs are 450w into 8 ohms. So with a head rated at 500w into 4 ohms if you're just running an 8 ohm cab you are unlikely to blow anything up.

You would be better off with a 4 ohm cab though to get the most out of your amp.

Those 'ratings' are largely irrelevant.
But that wasn't my point anyway-I was shooting down the bigger amp (1001RB) into a 410 idea.

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Those 'ratings' are largely irrelevant.
But that wasn't my point anyway-I was shooting down the bigger amp (1001RB) into a 410 idea.

TBH I think if you need more than 500w in your backline you're doing backline wrong.

[tigerfire]

I have a Hartke HA 5500 into an SWR Goliath III, and to be honest if it wasn't loud enough for a band I think your ears would be bleeding anyway. It does quite well both in terms of volume and tonal flexibility.

[Session1969]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

Reading comprehension ?

Who said a sing;e 6" will give the punch of a 8X10 ?

What was stated that thew amount of mids and highs necessary to provide a balance with a single 15 cab in a bi-amp situation can be provided by a 6" mid driver.

When bi-amping with a 1X15 and a 4X10, the 4X10 is a giant paperweight for the work it performs.

My bad ! Hey , does anyone know how to use the smiley face eating popcorn ?

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by kevteop

TBH I think if you need more than 500w in your backline you're doing backline wrong.

I agree.

[Vince Klortho]

Originally Posted by makohund

Speakers are not flat circles, they are closer to being cones.

Sd for two common 10" bass drivers I looked up: 700cm2
Sd for a 15 of the same family: 856cm2

Granted, the percentage difference ended up about the same, but better folks know the real calculation.

What "real" calculation ? You have not added any information to perform a real calculation. This page has some very good info about air displacement though. The fact is it doesn't matter very much. The actual performance as measure by sensitivity is a much more important value.

Originally Posted by makohund

In surface area the 4x10 exceeds the 1x15 by far. But that doesn't matter, displacement does. For that, the 15 is about the same as 3 of the 10s... so neither is a good match on those grounds. Both tie with a "fail".

On what basis are you making this generalization? Usually the displacement of a 15 is larger than a 10 because the surrounds are wider and the voice coil is deeper so the excursion is farther but I have no real numbers for the cabinets I mentioned and you have not shown any either.

Originally Posted by makohund

Power handling of two of the 10s is the same as the single 15. Which of course makes the 4x10 double that. Cut both in half to get closer to real (excursion) limits, but still... the 2x10 wins this round.

No, it does NOT. You can not infer excursion from power handling. Some speakers reach the thermal limit of the voice coil before the excursion limit of the cone and some are exactly the opposite.

Originally Posted by makohund

It also is closer in sensitivity (only about 1db higher than the 115), so that's two wins.

No, it is NOT. There are extremely few people in the entire world who can discern a 1dB difference in sensitivity and it is highly unlikely anyone would be concerned by it if they could. That is essentially a tie.

Originally Posted by makohund

So using real numbers a 2x10 was a better match for a 1x15 than a 4x10. But it still isn't a match.

I disagree. You have shown NO real numbers that prove anything. First, Hartke does not make a HyDrive-series 2x10 cabinet. Second, I think the two cabinets listed ARE a very close match and the 1dB sensitivity difference PROVES it. It is highly likely that Hartke designed them so that they would, in fact, BE a close match since those two are the combination that so many of their endorsers use.

As for me personally, it is a combination I use because I think they sound good together. One day I had a guy help me do some comparitive testing by unplugging and replugging my speaker cables. I was playing at a show with three bands and another guy had the same set up and we had some extra time so we tried combinations of 2x1x15s, 2x4x10s, and the mixed one. Everyone listening liked the mixed combination of a single fifteen with four tens the best. Your mileage may vary but that is the most important criteria : how they sound. Even if they are mismatched, as two cabinets from different manufacturers can be, that does not matter very much to me. I care about how they sound together.

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by Vince Klortho

Everyone listening liked the mixed combination of a single fifteen with four tens the best

Whatever works for you. I have to say though, time and time again, people who know better than nearly all of us have laid it out pretty plainly. A 115 and 410 together is one of the worst combinations possible. Your mids end up getting hacked to shreds. Maybe your hacked up mids were percieved in the room as a big scoop. I don't know.

[gregmon79]

If I were you, I would get the GK 1001 rb 2. It has a lot of headroom and plenty of power. As far as cabs go, spend the extra money if you can. Follow b strings advice as well, get a 410 @ 8 ohms, hopefully 2. The head will push 1 pretty hard.

[will33]

OP, you're getting some good info here in between the bickering and disinfo.

If you haven't made a choice yet, if it were me, in your situation, I'd take the ogfer of $125 on the Transient Attack 3500 and pick up the 410. They are worthy amps, sound very loud for their power ratings, have a more cutting mid tone to help you be heard through all the guitar noise and frankly, $125 for a good amp that works is an absolute steal. That and the 410 will get you through your rehearsals and first gigs. Keep your eyes out for another used 410 down the road and worry about swapping amps later if you find a different one you really like for whatever reason. You'll get your money back out of the 3500 as long as it works.

IF, you had more time...and money...then I'd get the GK and take some time to find strong cabs to pair it with. That is sort of a "lifetime" amp. Reliable, very powerful, and would suit you well in whatever band situation you may find yourself in now or in the future. They are plentiful, you'll be able to find one later if you want one.

[B-string]

I agree with will33 the deal on that amp head is too good to pass up for now!

[rogypop]

Having just had my new lh500 through rehalshals and a gig, all I can say is that I highly reccommend it. It has some warm tubey thing going on while staying clean and clear with lots of headrom. Just dont forget that eq is passive fender style 'tone stack', so your regular flat setting isnt everything at noon, rather bass 2, mids 10, treble 2. Its very useful once you get used to.
Havent mentioned that its maybe the loudest 500 watter I have played through.

[vishuddha]

Originally Posted by dsbass09

When I was researching the Hartke heads I saw lots of setups with a 4x10 and a 1x15 so I assumed it was a good setup for those heads.

Marketing works! Please don't mix the speaker sizes. 2 410s or 2 115s. I almost did the exact same thing but luckily the good people of TB warned me.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by Vince Klortho

What "real" calculation ? You have not added any information to perform a real calculation.

By real calculation I mean *not* generalizing with the size of a circle, because speakers aren't circles, and the result could be misleading. In your favor, actually... the depth of a 15 is usually more than a 10, which means a greater surface area difference than just "15 inch vs 10 inch circles" would get you. But then there's the dust cap to consider, so...

Best to just get the real figure from the manufacturer. If you can't get that, get one from a manufacturer that gives numbers for similar speakers.

This page has some very good info about air displacement though. The fact is it doesn't matter very much. The actual performance as measure by sensitivity is a much more important value.

I'm familiar with all of the articles on that site. I disagree to some extent... they are important, but sensitivity figures are usually given for performance at 1KHz. I'm more interested in what is going on below that.

On what basis are you making this generalization? Usually the displacement of a 15 is larger than a 10 because the surrounds are wider and the voice coil is deeper so the excursion is farther but I have no real numbers for the cabinets I mentioned and you have not shown any either.

Erm... 700 & 856cm2? For the drivers I said I looked at? All other statements based on the same datasheets. I forget which ones, I had numbers for a bunch of Emi drivers laying around for other reasons, and just picked one of each to compare. The 10 was probably an Basslite or Legend... I forget which 15, but it wasn't a 3015.

No, it does NOT. You can not infer excursion from power handling. Some speakers reach the thermal limit of the voice coil before the excursion limit of the cone and some are exactly the opposite.

Yeah, well the 10s were 150W each & the 15 was 300W, so there you go... a better electrical match at 2 than 4. I didn't get excursion from that, I got it from the datasheets.

No, it is NOT. There are extremely few people in the entire world who can discern a 1dB difference in sensitivity and it is highly unlikely anyone would be concerned by it if they could. That is essentially a tie.

Right. For the two 10's, which were about 1dB up from the 15. That's exactly what I'm saying. Now where does that put four of them?

I disagree. You have shown NO real numbers that prove anything.

I wasn't giving out numbers for Hartke gear, I don't know them. But I went out and looked at real numbers for real drivers, in order to better compare the whole 2x10 vs 4x10 with a 15 thing. Anyone else can do the same, and I recommend it for anyone considering that question. Feel free to hunt for models where four 10's match up better with a 15 that what I saw.

First, Hartke does not make a HyDrive-series 2x10 cabinet. Second, I think the two cabinets listed ARE a very close match and the 1dB sensitivity difference PROVES it. It is highly likely that Hartke designed them so that they would, in fact, BE a close match since those two are the combination that so many of their endorsers use.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Don't know. The sensitivity at 1KHz proves nothing by itself, a frequency response chart would maybe be a start for that. Better to just plug in and listen if possible. Sounds like you did, so kudos for that. FWIW I own a 1x15 & 2x10 and used to play them together. From an electrical and sensitivity standpoint, they're fairly close to a match, as mixed stacks go. Which means doubling up on the 10s would make it not even close.

As for me personally, it is a combination I use because I think they sound good together.

Excellent. That's what matters, so there you go. I don't question that one bit. Just careful not to put too much power in that 15... should put it on top so you can hear it better over the 10's.

Sorry for the derail, OP. This tangent should be done.

I liked the one Hartke I had a long time ago... the first amp I bought myself, actually. A little (I mean ridiculously small... nearly Markbass little) 15" combo. Did great, and actually managed to gig with it. Eventually blew at a rehearsal, simply wasn't meant to be pushed that hard... but it sounded great until then.