Can I use a PA speaker cabinet for my bass?

[CL400Peavey]

as I said, most commercial bass cabs dont clain to or are flat. The tones you get out of them are just fine for what they are, but I find them as a limitation.

[Sequimite]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

as I said, most commercial bass cabs dont clain to or are flat. The tones you get out of them are just fine for what they are, but I find them as a limitation.

I don't disagree, but twenty years ago I never heard of a bass amp with a tweeter. It looks like a trend from my perspective.

[gregbackstrom]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Thats just the thing. Most commercial cab companies dont advertise that their cabs are tuned flat. For them "Flat" is lack of tone. Their cabs have specific baked in "tones."

Personally I like a flat cab, its not lacking tone, its a blank palette. I can use the tonal controls on my bass and amp to structure the tone, or much more varying tones. A little EQ goes a long way with a flat cab. A cab with baked in tone doesnt respond in the same way.



Here is my "Full Range Flat Response" cab, fEARful 1515/66/1. At 100 pounds and having a huge power handling it has a great sound/pound value.

The idea of using PA'esk gear is great if you want to work on a blank slate. Actually dragging that PA gear around is often more trouble than it is worth as you end up carrying three times as much gear between subs, mains, cross over, power amps, mixer, and pre amp. This all adds up to a lot to move and set up. Where as I can take my 100 pound cab and a 15 pound 1600 watt rack set up, and I can quickly have you questioning the structural integrity of most buildings.

fEARful's are great cabinets! I have two of them. I agree that they're pretty full-range. But they are typically NOT flat (although you can get them close with a good graphic EQ). IMO and IME, with the recommended crossovers and especially with the 18 Sound mid driver, the cabinet has an exaggerated midrange.

A much flatter-voiced cabinet is the Audiokinesis Thunderchild, which has a crossover designed to address the "peaks and valleys" of the cabinet's drivers.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by gregbackstrom

fEARful's are great cabinets! I have two of them. I agree that they're pretty full-range. But they are typically NOT flat (although you can get them close with a good graphic EQ). IMO and IME, with the recommended crossovers and especially with the 18 Sound mid driver, the cabinet has an exaggerated midrange.

A much flatter-voiced cabinet is the Audiokinesis Thunderchild, which has a crossover designed to address the "peaks and valleys" of the cabinet's drivers.

Compared to many commercial cabs they are flat. It will always be a comparative term. That said I do agree that the 18 sound is very present. Its also in a range that a lot of cabs have a huge chop in their response. The Thunderchild is an incredible cab. If I ever got the chance to play one I would probably GAS for one until I bought one. It is a different animal across the frequency range though, you are not going to get the sub style lows from it either.

[gregbackstrom]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Compared to many commercial cabs they are flat. It will always be a comparative term. That said I do agree that the 18 sound is very present. Its also in a range that a lot of cabs have a huge chop in their response. The Thunderchild is an incredible cab. If I ever got the chance to play one I would probably GAS for one until I bought one. It is a different animal across the frequency range though, you are not going to get the sub style lows from it either.

Agreed. I've actually padded the 18 Sound midrange in my 1212/6/1 3dB to improve the bass-to-mids balance. There's still some upper-mid stuff going on that I didn't quite get under control, but the EQ addresses that pretty well.

Regarding the fEARful super-lows, I find those to be more useful for our outdoor gigs than the ballroom, theater, and "showplex" venues we usually play. But, again, the graphic EQ does a great job of sculpting them as necessary.

[Glummi]

Originally Posted by Sequimite

[...] so is there anything, other than size and weight, that should deter me from using an Altec Voice of the Theater cabinet or it's equivalent for my bass?

Ages ago I checked out JBL 4560's, cause I saw Francis Buchholz (Scorpions) using 2 of them on stage. The result was a low mid, mumbling mud of sound, that needed a huge amount of power from the amp (Peavey Mk III) to get loud enough.

Later I used an Ampeg V4B with two JBL 4530 with K-140 speakers and that gave me a defined and punchy deep tone.

The downside was, that they sounded different in any direction and the folks in the backrows were blown away.

Not really surprising, horn-loaded cabs on stage are the 2nd best choice.
So I mounted the K-140's in a V4B cab and that sounded awesome, in any direction and distance.

Conclusion: for instrument bass use an instrument cabinet and for PA purposes use PA cabs.

EDIT: the very last attempt was two JBL 4512 with 2235 speakers driven by a Trace Elliot AH-400, the result was somewhere between the previous experiments....

[will33]

I used to play a pair of those Carvin 1330 bins for a short time trying to make my bassman loud. It worked, but didn't last long. It was like moving furniture to every gig and there was no room left for any other gear.

With modern driver technology, you can do it in a smaller package. The big fEARfuls mentioned can get you there, or maybe something like a BFM Omni15 or sub + small top would get you there if you like the horns. They do filter out distortion in addition to just making stuff loud. I'm going that direction with my PA, but still like some "color" in a bass rig, provided it's a color I like.

[Jon S.]

My first post here in 10 years!

What do you'll think of using a pair of these Yamaha S115IV Club Series PA Speakers as bass cabs? The cab reproduces 55 Hz to 16 kHz and the crossover frequency is 1.7kHz. Our band's bassist is going to try it this Sunday. If it works, it would be ideal for me. We practice at my house, they're my extra speakers, and they'll never need to be moved.

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/...s/ClubIV_J.pdf

[IMG][/IMG]

[chadds]

Just set in where the backline was that revered Yamaha pre into a Peavey 800 pwr amp into two Peavey PA cabs. They had a horn and 1x15. Only in one place in the room did they sound correct. In fact just on the other side of the drummer you could barely hear them. This place was exactly opposite the good place. I would be very unhappy with such a rig.

[Duckwater]

I actually prefer PA speakers to bass cabs

[nostatic]

I just got an RCF HD-12a and used it at rehearsal last night. It works for this particular situation (sparse lineup), not sure it has the punch for a busier mix. I think the answer "does it work?" depends on the particular cabinet, the music you're playing, and the placement and venue. I wouldn't run them on a stand - you really need to have them on the ground imho. One cool thing is that many of these speakers can double in a typical stage monitor config (horizontal and 45 angle pointing up) which can help with hearing yourself especially in tight spaces.

[Sequimite]

Since the thread is revived I'll mention that I ended up with a 12 / 6 LDS cabinet and a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0. Aside from the weight I didn't go with regular PA cabs because I wanted better low frequency reproduction.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Sequimite

Well my old Bozak system had a 12" woofer in an 8 cubic foot cabinet. Pushed by a minimum of 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms I could hear the detailed response of an orchestral bass drum at live volume levels.

Notice that your first and second sentence contradict each other. You say that good bass reproduction needs relatively flat frequency response from lows to the upper mid-range (what Ampeg claims for their product) and then conclude that a PA speaker can't do that, when in fact that is exactly what a PA speaker is designed to do.

Most of my "hifi" speakers are from the 50's and 60's and the innovations since then seem to be compromises where sound quality is lost in exchange for less weight and size. Weight and size are legitimate concerns but I began this thread by asking, if you put these aside, will a high powered wide frequency PA speaker work?

I've heard enough to believe it is a viable option. Whether I end up liking it better than a conventional bass speaker cabinet is an open question, but with the proper preamp and a graphic equalizer to shape the frequency response I think I'll like the sound whether or not I like lugging the cabinets around.

I have played through Altec cabs of all descriptions including A7's and find they sound very very good on bass with the right amp up to a certain level, here is my pair of vintage 12" five port cabs with 811 horns and purple flock, how funky is that?.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by chadds

Just set in where the backline was that revered Yamaha pre into a Peavey 800 pwr amp into two Peavey PA cabs.

Can someone translate this for me?

[sweetwillyp]

I have used PA stuff for bass Rigs and it has worked well in most situations..

One of my Favorite things to use was a Sansamp RBI and a Mackie 400watt Powered 15" speaker.. It sounded cool and it was Very Portable while maintaining the Ability to get Very loud.

I also would use the Mackies to Dial in FOH sound Along with My Bass Rig here is how

RBI to Bass Stack
RBI to Powered Main
Then I would Adjust the EQ and Compression ETC to match on Each output.

[agedhorse]

One of the chief disadvantages of using (real) PA cabinets for bass is that the low pass crossover on the 15 (like the Yamahas shown above) is usually down around 800-1500Hz. The transition away from the cone to the horn at lower frequencies takes away some of the specific voicing attributes from the LF driver, specifically the non-linearities that (if well designed and executed) can contribute to a more rich and pleasing sound and feel.

I think what's being overlooked is that on a bass, the string/pickup generates not only only a fundamental note but also an entire series of harmonicly related signals that may exceed 50% of the fundamental itself. Without these harmonics (essentially a fundamental sine wave), the tone would be awful. It's these non-linearities that make each instrument sound different, have a different texture or dimension and to feel and play differently. The same goes for designing a LF driver, we use many of the same principles in exploiting a harmonic spectrum that gives each cabinet a particuar flavor. Eack player will prefer a different flavor profile, that's why there are so many successful and preferred speaker models on the market. High passing removes many of these higher harmonics which for many players takes away from their desired voicing and texture.

As an example, the beloved JBL D-130/140/145/2220 all are based on similar (or identical) motors and frames but because of the different soft parts have completely different harmonic structures just like different bass models might have. each driver represents a tradeoff in a particular set of parameters to achieve the right mix for a particular application and/or taste.

"Flat", while it may look good on paper, may not sound as you might expect. The trick though, is understanding how a particular driver's harmonic structure translates into a desireable voicing and practical end result. This is the art in the engineering.

[Winfred]

Originally Posted by Sequimite

Noob here, life-long drummer, long time rhythm guitarist with an opportunity to play bass. I'm also a stereophile and old, so I have the stubborn determination that you need a BIG cabinet for proper lows. I think of the bass reproduction in my old Bozak Concerto speakers.

I've also noticed that many bass speaker cabinets look a lot like full range PA speakers, so is there anything, other than size and weight, that should deter me from using an Altec Voice of the Theater cabinet or it's equivalent for my bass?

Well, since you're fine with the size and weight, there's really no other reason for not doing it. Not my personal choice, but go for it if it's your cup 'o tea.

My opinion, and that's all this is, is that you're gonna get tired of it pretty quick. Then you'll buy a nice, high-end, light weight punchy combo, and be even happier.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

One of the chief disadvantages of using (real) PA cabinets for bass is that the low pass crossover on the 15 (like the Yamahas shown above) is usually down around 800-1500Hz. The transition away from the cone to the horn at lower frequencies takes away some of the specific voicing attributes from the LF driver, specifically the non-linearities that (if well designed and executed) can contribute to a more rich and pleasing sound and feel.

I think what's being overlooked is that on a bass, the string/pickup generates not only only a fundamental note but also an entire series of harmonicly related signals that may exceed 50% of the fundamental itself. Without these harmonics (essentially a fundamental sine wave), the tone would be awful. It's these non-linearities that make each instrument sound different, have a different texture or dimension and to feel and play differently. The same goes for designing a LF driver, we use many of the same principles in exploiting a harmonic spectrum that gives each cabinet a particuar flavor. Eack player will prefer a different flavor profile, that's why there are so many successful and preferred speaker models on the market. High passing removes many of these higher harmonics which for many players takes away from their desired voicing and texture.

As an example, the beloved JBL D-130/140/145/2220 all are based on similar (or identical) motors and frames but because of the different soft parts have completely different harmonic structures just like different bass models might have. each driver represents a tradeoff in a particular set of parameters to achieve the right mix for a particular application and/or taste.

"Flat", while it may look good on paper, may not sound as you might expect. The trick though, is understanding how a particular driver's harmonic structure translates into a desireable voicing and practical end result. This is the art in the engineering.

+1

[Luckydog]

Originally Posted by Sequimite

The biggest problem I see is getting the 15" cabinet through doors. I'll have 3 pieces, the 15" horn loaded cab, the big EV horn with built in crossover and a head. One advantage of this set up is that I get 2 speaker stacks for $200 or so and can have one set up at the rehearsal space and an identical pair of cabinets ready to roll. Make that two advantages: cheap and duplicate components. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition . . .

The biggest problem i see is you're gonna scare the cr@p out of the venue owners, and possibly other members of the band. You'll also find it extremely tedious dragging this stuff around, and will likely opt soon for a smaller setup with speakers of identical size.

[blowinblue]

This was the backline rig that greeted me at a gig about a year and a half ago. Talk about creamy, rich, dark, fat, buttery tone. The V4-B likely had much to do with that but still...what a tone. I wouldn't want to live with a rig like this but it was glorious for the three sets I got to play through it. The Yamahas were 15"ers, btw.



M. M.