Carvin Neo Driver xMax?!

butcher · #1 12-28-2011, 08:26 AM

In the process of starting a 15-6 or 12-6 build. Would love to do a fearful but the 3012LF and 3015LF are really cost prohibitive right now.

So, I stumbled on the Carvin raw driver page. Great prices!! But..... when you look up the Thiele/Small parameters the xMax values are REALLY bad (except for the 18" drivers, and those aren't even good for an 18").

After further inspection, the only driver they offer with a decent xMax is their PS10 which is just an old heavy 10" driver for which I would rather pick up an Emi B102.

Am I looking at this right? I did some searches for Carvin Neo drivers in this section and found some love for their finished cabs but are they using different drivers than what they seem to be selling as raw drivers?

billfitzmaurice · #2 12-28-2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butcher

are they using different drivers than what they seem to be selling as raw drivers?

They'd have to be to get the results that some claim they do. The other possibility is that they don't work as well as some owners think they do. You'd have to try a fEarful or the equivalent side by side with them to know for sure.

majortoby · #3 12-28-2011, 08:36 AM

Perhaps, you should investigate the offerings from Peavey. They offer some pretty decent subs at a killer price. However, don't discount the other products Eminence produce; good stuff is there beyond the NEO line. However, as I'm sure you may already know, and will hear many times, driver choice is basically moot if the box is not well designed. My recommendation would be to download both versions of winisd and get good with them. I havent been able to figure them out, but, well, I'm pretty stupid. Another factor to consider is crossover design. A good Xover will take a fair amount of effort, since you'll have to determine the frequency, and slope of the crossover. However daunting that may sound, the reward is a cabinet that will vastly exceed the capabilities of virtually any commercial speakers. But, if spending dozens of hours designing the cab does not appeal to you, I would recommend saving up for a fearful build. I understand that the prices of the listed speaker currently suck, but if that's what you want to shoot for, anything else will fall short. This is all IMO, but I don't think I'll be the last to say this

gigslut · #4 12-28-2011, 09:00 AM

Faital Pro has some excellent speakers at great prices. Check at US speaker.com. The W12N8 350 is a powerhouse with an impressive xmax.

butcher · #5 12-28-2011, 09:56 AM

Wow! Those do look like great specs and prices. That is a really sensitive driver according to the specs.

I am also digging the Galaxy Audio S5N-8 for the highs. Looks like it's going to be a 12-5 build.

I plan to drive this cab with a GK MB500.

Looks like I need to start honing my WinIsd skills.

Majortoby - I am totally up for spending hours and hours designing the cab and or crossover. I have been wanting to build my own crossover anyway. Any tips on on a good primer or reference on design/component selection?

Thanks to all for the info and help!

billfitzmaurice · #6 12-28-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butcher

I have been wanting to build my own crossover anyway. Any tips on on a good primer or reference on design/component selection?

Designing a cab is child's play compared to designing a good crossover. Unless you're extremely well skilled in using a program like this:
Loudspeaker Design Software

and/or you have both frequency response and impedance measuring hardware and software I'd recommend against it.

majortoby · #7 12-28-2011, 10:26 AM

Or, you could always just build a box for a 1-way system

will33 · #8 12-28-2011, 10:37 AM

Apparently Carvin added the specs for the neo series in 2008? Perhaps they're more current...not sure. The specs for the older PS series are the same ones they originally put up there years and years ago and they've never been updated even though things like magnet/motor structure, VC diameters, thermal ratings, etc. have changed over the years. I wouldn't put too much faith in those.

As an example, I used to have a 115 cab of theirs with the PS15C-8 in it. I didn't know much about this stuff then but if that 1.8mm xmax figure were true, I would've farted and fried that thing many times over but it held together. Xlim is not published. Perhaps that's far enough out there to save some drivers. Even if it is, the thing should've sounded way fartier than it ever did given those published specs....seeing as I was clipping 400 watt amps into it with massive bass boost.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it.

bobcruz · #9 12-28-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butcher

...I am also digging the Galaxy Audio S5N-8 for the highs. Looks like it's going to be a 12-5 build. ...

If that's the same driver that's in two Galaxy Hotspots I have, they sound very inaccurate (to my ears, terrible) when playing recorded music. They're just barely OK as vocal monitors.

canadian*eh · #10 12-28-2011, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "

I would recommend saving up for a fearful build. I understand that the prices of the listed speaker currently suck, but if that's what you want to shoot for, anything else will fall short. This is all IMO, but I don't think I'll be the last to say this

+1 I would highly recommend saving your money and building a fearful you will never regret it. I am sure there are some good nearfuls but they still aren't a fearful. It is hard to explain what they can do unless you get a chance to try one out for your self. All I know is that they are better and and do more then I ever could of imagined. They are nothing short of amazing!! IMHO spend the ill extra money and never look back you will never have to by another cab again unless you get gas and decide to build another fearful

majortoby · #11 12-28-2011, 10:54 AM

Lucky lucky man I am, that true, faithful reproduction of my bass' natural sound isn't my thing

I'm more of a "modded peavey Windsor into a 412( BASS 412)" kinda guy

I couldn't imagine how bad it would be if I truly demanded all those qualities unobtainable before fearful

jeff7bass · #12 12-28-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will33

Apparently Carvin added the specs for the neo series in 2008? Perhaps they're more current...not sure. The specs for the older PS series are the same ones they originally put up there years and years ago and they've never been updated even though things like magnet/motor structure, VC diameters, thermal ratings, etc. have changed over the years. I wouldn't put too much faith in those.

As an example, I used to have a 115 cab of theirs with the PS15C-8 in it. I didn't know much about this stuff then but if that 1.8mm xmax figure were true, I would've farted and fried that thing many times over but it held together. Xlim is not published. Perhaps that's far enough out there to save some drivers. Even if it is, the thing should've sounded way fartier than it ever did given those published specs....seeing as I was clipping 400 watt amps into it with massive bass boost.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it.

Exactly what I was thinking. I’ve tried out their BRX cabs (210 and 410) and cranked them up LOUD with a B2000 head on them and didn’t experience farting. I also own a MB10 micro combo, which is 200w into a single 10” speaker and it cranks also. Granted I keep the BASS knob around 1:00, not cranked up high which would tax the speakers more.

will33 · #13 12-28-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff7bass

Exactly what I was thinking. I’ve tried out their BRX cabs (210 and 410) and cranked them up LOUD with a B2000 head on them and didn’t experience farting. I also own a MB10 micro combo, which is 200w into a single 10” speaker and it cranks also. Granted I keep the BASS knob around 1:00, not cranked up high which would tax the speakers more.

I didn't get it either when I saw the numbers. Some may be filtering in the amps, some the port tuning calming the cones down on the low notes, some the fact that an instrument signal isn't a constant signal like a sine wave but rather hits them with a spike, then calms down.....who knows?

butcher · #14 12-28-2011, 11:17 AM

Thanks for the tip on the galaxy - specs don't always tell you what something is going to sound like. Yes, it seems to be the same one in the hot spots.

nearFul - love that.

I don't think I'm trying to build a nearFul... although it may seem that way.

The hope if for something is easy to carry up and down stairs, loud-ish with my MB 500, nice balanced tone with some growl and punch when dialed up... and cheap-ish.

I know smaller cabs won't reproduce the fundamental of a B string (or even an E in some cases) but I can live without the colon-rumbling freqs if everything else is there.

I am a DIY kind of guy and am always willing to research and learn new things, but if having proper testing hardware is a requirement then that my be something I leave building the crossover up to the pros. Any recommendations?

What I would really like to build/design is a darn-good sounding cab with an Eminence Delta 12LF and an Alpha 6a. They are quite reasonably priced, decent specs and you could go either 8Ohm or 4Ohm on both drivers. I guess that WOULD be kind of a nearFul wouldn't it...

Maybe if just one more person recommends that I just wait and save to build a fearFul 12-6 or 15-6 I may just have to do that

I wish there were some threads on TB about how awesome those cabs are and how to build them or where to get kits (jk! I know, I know).

butcher · #15 12-28-2011, 11:22 AM

Maybe it is worth a call or email to Carvin to get the what's what on those drivers. Some of those specs just didn't seem right at all.

I am not that concerned with the major weight savings that the Neo cabs provide but rather performance that can't seem to be replicated by other drivers (from what I can gather browsing through the fearFul threads et. al.).

will33 · #16 12-28-2011, 11:24 AM

I have a couple alpha 6's and like them. The Delta12LF is a good driver for it's day but you'd pretty much need 2 of them to match what a kappalite could do with enough power behind it. They also like a bit larger box, tend to get boomy in small boxes. Have to balance cost, size, weight,etc. with "how loud do need a 112 to be?.

butcher · #17 12-28-2011, 11:29 AM

will33 - thanks, that's good to know! I already have a 12LF but would gladly put it in a larger box with an Alpha 6a. I know Eminence makes some pro crossovers, but what would a good xover point be? 1.6K, 2.0K?

Well, the 112 doesn't have to get too loud. I do a lot of smaller acoustic gigs but sometimes would need more volume. I wouldn't mind building two 112s and stacking them for more volume when needed.

kraigo · #18 12-28-2011, 11:44 AM

I was kind of surprised to see that the Delta 12 LF is really pretty much a 125 watt speaker. See http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_12LFA_cab.pdf - "Displacement limited to 125 watts".

Passinwind · #19 12-28-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraigo

I was kind of surprised to see that the Delta 12 LF is really pretty much a 125 watt speaker. See http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_12LFA_cab.pdf - "Displacement limited to 125 watts".

That's only true in the biggest suggested box size.

will33 · #20 12-28-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraigo

I was kind of surprised to see that the Delta 12 LF is really pretty much a 125 watt speaker. See http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_12LFA_cab.pdf - "Displacement limited to 125 watts".

That's for a 3-1/4 cu.ft. cab. I'd lean more towards the 2.5 cu.ft. "medium vented" design. More manageable size and still plays plenty low. The alpha6 is a good spl match for it. Prolly cross around 1k, the alpha's "loud region" (95ish db) is from 1k-5k. That'd mean rolling your own crossover, which I don't have enough knowledge to help with....yet. Could go as high as 1.6 without the 12 beaming too badly but looking at the in-box impedance curves in the cab design pdf's, the 800hz 2-way would likely be the best fit. Still not optimal, but better.

If you already have a delta12lf, I'd at least play around with it, see if you really "need" to put $200-$300 in a premium woofer. The alpha's run around $40. If you have biamp capability, can run them that way until you settle on a crossover point, etc. That's what I do, at least until I get this whole crossover thing figured out.