Challenge to listen with your ears, not eyes!

[anonymous101511]

To get over this weird obsession with tiny 10" speakers for bass, I challenge all of you to go to a retailer with good PA gear and plug into a system with some good 15" subs. Compare to your little under- performing 10's and ask yourself why you are using them.When you go to a concert, do you see any 10's in the PA? Nope, 15's ,12's ,and horns are all that are used in modern systems.Guitar players don't even use 10's! Wedges are always 15'or 12's with horns.10's don't cut it!I once used a system on the road with 32x 10's, with 5,000 watts.It didn't come close to my 4x15" Meyer set-up! Bass amps are horribly over priced. You can get great PA gear for less than bass amps!Use a small 1x15 or 18 sub, and put your 4x 10 on the top, bi-amped.I mean a real sound reinfocement sub-woofer, not the junk that Eden and SWR sell! You will thank me, I promise!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by vail_bass
To get over this weird obsession with tiny 10" speakers for bass, I challenge all of you to go to a retailer with good PA gear and plug into a system with some good 15" subs. Compare to your little under- performing 10's and ask yourself why you are using them.When you go to a concert, do you see any 10's in the PA? Nope, 15's ,12's ,and horns are all that are used in modern systems.Guitar players don't even use 10's! Wedges are always 15'or 12's with horns.10's don't cut it!I once used a system on the road with 32x 10's, with 5,000 watts.It didn't come close to my 4x15" Meyer set-up! Bass amps are horribly over priced. You can get great PA gear for less than bass amps!Use a small 1x15 or 18 sub, and put your 4x 10 on the top, bi-amped.I mean a real sound reinfocement sub-woofer, not the junk that Eden and SWR sell! You will thank me, I promise!

Interesting. Nice rant. I'd bet at least half of us will scurry off to a pro sound gear company in the morning and drop a bundle. Screw tone, I want VOLUME!

Your suggestion is to cart around PA gear for use with a bass guitar. Funny thing is, I did that. I didn't know any better... now I do. Why take a PA when you can just use one?

Then again you're obviously playing much, much, much louder than I ever hope to again. Hey, if you need that much gear, where 32-10's and 5KW of power doesn't cut it, cool. I'm guessing that even a deaf bassist could hear that. What?

Your suggestion as to what to put on top of the 15 or 18 is interesting. Will it cut it or not?

[Brad Johnson]

Sorry, almost forgot....


Thank you

[Luis Fabara]

Its not about Loudness, but Tone.
The other day I had to practice using a Yamaha 2x15 Box connected to my Hartke 2000 Amp.
To my surprise It sounded very fat and heavy... and I liked it... but suddenly I realized that even that it was phat and loud, the tone sucked to hell.
My Ampeg SVT410HE wasnt that loud, but the tone was a lot better and tighter due to the fast response of the 10" speakers.

After that comparison I realized that the ear sometimes can be fooled by a lot of sound pressure. But you wont get a good musical melodic tone.
Of course 15" are good, but please, how can you compare a PA gear to an SWR or EDEN.
That is just nonsense for me.

And by the way...
4 10" speakers move more air than one 15" or a 18" but have a quicker response that allow for a more articulated tone.

Now, you are comparing Bass Amp´s against a Meyer Sound system setup.
How much does a Meyer System cost?? I believe it is very expensive, and of course it is good. In fact it is great. But I dont think a good hi-fi tone is there.

[Brad Johnson]

I'll ask the obvious question...is the really Vail Johnson?

[anonymous101511]

Gabu, apparently, contrary positions are not welcome here. From what I've read, it's just the same stuff, over and over.I'm sorry that you have taken such offense to someone shaking up your little on- line world, but in the real world of touring and recording, I DO have a position worth considering. I'll stop participating if my input is not welcome. Again, I'm just trying to help.Some will benefit from my experience if those of you who are threatened by it just stay out of the way.

[anonymous101511]

Gabu, that is a lovely picture!I wonder why your band isn't gigging? hmmmmmmm

[anonymous101511]

Yeah, It's me!It's not about all out volume, it's about headroom. For my around town club gigs, I use a rig smaller than 2 4x10" cabs. I use a single 18" JBL (I forget the number , but it is the PA woofer , better than the instrument woofer) and a SMALL PA cab ( about the size of a 2x10" cab) with a E-140 JBL and a small horn. This sounds better than (Deeper, fatter, crisper, quicker;remember, SWR 4x10' cabs have so little damping that they actually respond quite slowly!)any bass amp.It also fits in my car,no van required.I use an old Dean Markley DB pre-amp and Carver 2.0t power( 'cause it's light) I've owned or otherwise gigged with every one made,American, Japanese, German, Swedish, you name it !I'm just trying to help those that have not had the good fortune that I have had, and am encouraging them to try new things;don't settle for conventional wisdom or take my word for it ,other than open your eyes and ears and try for yourselves!BTW, when you need that extra push over the edge, it's there!

[anonymous101511]

Yeah Luis,a Hartke head and a Yamaha 2x15" would sound terrible.No arguement there.I'm just sick of the crap that these companies are selling us . I wish I could but an amp that sounded good and had the balls to gig with. My other set up that I use is a multiple polytone amp rig.I use the polytones' in the studio all the time.The single 15" with tweeters sounds great. Much truer than all those 4x10" abominations.I have 6 powered extension cabs, each with 1x15" and two Motorola piezos'.I can link any or all to satisfy most situations. Before I started using the Meyer set up, I had all 6 out with Kenny G., and they sounded great! They are the only amp that I would use if I can't use the pro- sound gear.

[anonymous101511]

Luis , you sound like a sales brochure with that,'tighter articulation 'bit. There's no way in hell that a full range cabinet, like a 4x10" with a tweeter (that is so confoundedly popular), can reproduce the full range of a bass guitar at any useful level. I suppose if you're playing with an acoustic piano type trio, unmiked, you could get away with it, but you'd still be much better off with a Polytone amp for that!A nice little bi-amped rig with a real sub-woofer and say a 1x12 or 15 plus a tweeter for the top sounds great, is portable and cheaper than a SWR or comparable "boutique" rig.For small clubs, you could use just a single 15" P.A. speaker if you can attenuate the horn, as they can be bright.If you use a good power amp and pre- amp, this will work. You can't just use a bass amp head. They generally have such a built-in sound, ( SWRs' are the worst for this) that they wont get flat once you are using a truly full- range speaker configuration.

[Nails]

I find it amusing that a man telling us to listen with our ears could say, in not so many words, that our preference of speaker cab isn't as good as his. If this whole "mini-PA" thing works for you, that's great. But personally I like the sound of tens, they have better presence to my ears. I've played setups with just 12s or 15s and they sounded muddy. I want to be able to hear the difference between notes. That's just what I think though.

And even though I disagree with you on this 10s issue, I do have to agree with trying new things, even if they are unconventional. For that I tip my hat to you.

[Luis Fabara]

You have very strong points.
I do believe that for reproducing the true 40hz or 30hz (In case of a 5 string) a subwoofer is needed. So I agree with you on that.

On the other hand, I also believe that the best setup is a no-compromise combination of a 4x10 and a sub.

Right now Im going to buy a Carvin RL1018, wich consists of an R1000 Head (Wich is really a DCM1000 1000 Watt stereo amp, with the Preamp Section/Crosover section for Bass Guitar aplications) a 4x10" Cabinet and a 1x18" Cabinet.
They sport Eminence Speakers as far as I know, and I believe it will be able to reproduce every aspect of my 6 String Bass guitar.

Why the R1000? Because I truly like the DCM1000.
Im a Carvin dealer down here.. (I live in Ecuador - South America) so Carvin gear is very affordable for me.
Also have dealer prices for Ampeg, but it gets too costy and I would still use a DCM1000 as the power amp.

You know, I just sold my Hartke 2000 Head and he SVT410HE I had.(TODAY!!)


Im happy, that new Carvin Rig will be awesome, I think.

[anonymous101511]

Nails, if you're in Southern California, you can try my rig anytime, otherwise, let me know what part of the world you're in , and I'll get you to a show next time I'm around.Give me a chance, and I'll convert 'ya, guaranteed!

[Gabu]

Vail_Bass the crusader! Thank God you are here to save us from ourselves.

Everyone here tells everyone else to buy with your ears... but you- you do it with such emotion.

Did someone drop a 18" speaker on your head?

If you follow your own advice, you will probably end up with 15s or whatnot... interestingly enough, if we follow your advice we may not.

As you say use your ears... some people like 10s. Sorry if that makes us unGodly.

[Joris]

Hey mr. Vail,

I don't know you at all, but I suggest you take your rant elsewhere, because we don't need anyone to tell us what to use, or how good his rig sounds.

Why do you care if anyone likes 10" speakers or not? All I would care about is: can I hear my sound on stage? If you need 18s to get the sound you want, hey, that's cool. Some need 10s. Some even prefer 8s, which would be considered tweeters in a PA. No, 10s are not subwoofers. That's why I personally built hifi subwoofer cabs which have flat response down to low A. I hate the sound of "standard bass rig" 10s. But you won't see me starting a thread on my socalled "fantastic rig".

FWIW, here's a picture.

[JohnP]

rant or no..V's right about Meyers 2x15 cabs..if you haven't heard your bass pumped through one ( not to mention 4! This is Munch's rig you are using?), -and unless you are on an ultra pro level like Vail, I bet you haven't--they are the best. Another level entirely.

I suppose we could start comparing Meyers to Clair Bros, etc..but it's like comparing Lambos to Ferraris, and most of us b drivin' teal mini vans..not that there's anything wrong with teal mini vans. Some of my best friends..

stick around Vail, it gets more interesting..
jp

[brewer9]

Originally posted by Joris
Hey mr. Vail,

I don't know you at all, but I suggest you take your rant elsewhere

This is precisely where a person should "rant" about bass related stuff. Should he go to a guitar board? or maybe a singing board? No, clearly its a bass rant so a bass board is where it belongs.

I am not defending the content of his rant, cuz its clearly not practical or useful. But if thats his opinion then engage the person in a conversation about why you think otherwise. Isnt that what we do here?

[Gabu]

I recieved this morning a very interesting response from my post by vailbass.

He had a disagreement with the sarcasm and general tone of my previous post.

The fact that he communicated directly with me, privately makes me feel that he is not what I feared. My first impression was that this was just a) some 12 year old punk just stiring things up or b) a clone acount (you know what I mean) trying to stir some things up.

But in any case, I feel that Vail has demonstrated to me that he is not those things and additionally that he is posting what he honestly believes in effort to give people valuable information.

So that is way cool.

So, I am sorry for my earlier sarcasm. I believe the message that I put out is valid still. That boils down to when you listen with your ears, different people will "like" different sounds. As an asthetic, there are no absolute right answers in music.

I guess I was the 12 year old this time!

[dancehallclasher]

so how much did this meyer rig cost you, exactly?

[Stingray5]

I use my little under performing 10's because they suit my needs. I like the sound, as do my bandmates and the audience (unless they're all lying to me ). I don't anticipate that I will be playing arenas anytime soon, so this challenge is a bit of a moot point for me.

If you are in fact the Vail Johnson of Kenny G fame (and understand that any doubts would arise from bewilderment as to a player of that stature suddenly coming to our humble messageboard to talk shop), well, I must say I'm honestly a little surprised. I couldn't find a lot about you on the web, but I did find this:

http://www.bassfrontiers.com/archive/060196/touring.htm

which I really enjoyed. I took from it the sense that Vail Johnson wouldn't be too hung up on what size speakers a group of internet-chatting-mostly-amateur-bassists use. ("Soundcheck for the jazz musician often involves a different sound system and monitor engineer every day. This demands a lot of time to get the sound right for everyone on stage and out front. Hopefully you reach a balance that will enhance your musical creativity and the audience’s enjoyment")

Of course, I could be mistaken. Just my thoughts.

I think that different styles of music and different styles of bass playing command different speaker setups. If someone is going for a tight, honky sound and won't be playing arenas, I don't see the problem with 10' speakers for that particular player. If that's what they're after, there's no reason to be close minded to any options available to them.