Class D Amps - Anyone else having second thoughts?

[MetroBass]

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm#2
http://www.audioholics.com/education...s-d-amplifiers

I know this is all old news, however, based on the surge of class d bass amps out there and all the hoopla surrounding the products, not to mention the $$$$ being spent on the crazy is it really the right thing to do as musicians? Based on the industries theories around class d amplification have we succumbed to meritocracy when it comes to our sonic quality and tone?
The two articles attached clearly delineate the shortcomings of class D amplification, but maybe we like just riding it out in the background with our light weight amps, blending in when possible and being the “popular” followers that we’re so use to being.
Personally, I have the same McIntosh tube amp and pre-amp stereo system I purchased in 1984, my Klipsch Forte’s and have never had a inclination to go out an purchase a new stereo system. So why do so many of us, join the popular crowd, toss or sell off our perfectly good classic amps and become followers of the class D craze? I can’t recall who first called them “sterile” on here, but that’s the best one word description I’ve heard.
Yes, I was once curious so I went out and tried many of the so called “leaders of the pack” and seriously can’t come up with one reason to own one except - they’re lightweight – but again, I guess that’s why I’m not popular! Don’t be fooled: Size does matter!

[T. Alan Smith]

I actually liked the way my SWR 350 sounded better than my MB LMII does.

[okcrum]

Class D done right is fine. Genz-Benz seems to have it down the best of the bass amp makers, right now, and agedhorse is one helluva designer. The companies who are buying Pacific rim clone designs are the ones who'll be taking the big hits on their class D offerings. Sad to say, that includes some formerly revered names...

[BassIan]

Originally Posted by MetroBass

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm#2
http://www.audioholics.com/education...s-d-amplifiers

I know this is all old news, however, based on the surge of class d bass amps out there and all the hoopla surrounding the products, not to mention the $$$$ being spent on the crazy is it really the right thing to do as musicians? Based on the industries theories around class d amplification have we succumbed to meritocracy when it comes to our sonic quality and tone?
The two articles attached clearly delineate the shortcomings of class D amplification, but maybe we like just riding it out in the background with our light weight amps, blending in when possible and being the “popular” followers that we’re so use to being.
Personally, I have the same McIntosh tube amp and pre-amp stereo system I purchased in 1984, my Klipsch Forte’s and have never had a inclination to go out an purchase a new stereo system. So why do so many of us, join the popular crowd, toss or sell off our perfectly good classic amps and become followers of the class D craze? I can’t recall who first called them “sterile” on here, but that’s the best one word description I’ve heard.
Yes, I was once curious so I went out and tried many of the so called “leaders of the pack” and seriously can’t come up with one reason to own one except - they’re lightweight – but again, I guess that’s why I’m not popular! Don’t be fooled: Size does matter!

Your signature and the tone of your post, indicate your personal preference. However, I submit that in a double-blind test, you (or the rest of us) would not be able to distinguish a Class D from a Class A/B, or other amplifier topology, whether tubes or solid state devices were used. I imply of course proper gain-matching.

Nobody can discredit your opinion or perception. But, if you're talking about ability to produce an audio signal powerfully, nothing is more elegant than an amplifier than wastes less than 5% of the energy it draws as heat and weighs in the single-digits.

Tubes do look cool, and the topology of most tube amps results in a pleasing sound when overdriven.

The "hoopla" as you call it is because lightweight amplifiers than produce huge power are appealing. I see or hear no reason to lug my 80 lb SVT 2-Pro around when I can get more volume and a similar tone from my 4 lb Genz Shuttle 9. It's an easy choice.

Listen with the ears, not the eyes or the wallet. Switch-mode power supplies and efficient amplifier topologies are being adopted for much more demanding applications than audio. Their performance isn't even remotely questionable. As with everything else in reality, it is impossible and assinine to generalize to such a high degree.

A well-designed amplifier will sound good regardless of the topology. Choose your price point, weight, tone, and power to suit your preference, but don't miss out on potentially awesome equipment because of an ill-founded prejudice.

[GaryM]

Originally Posted by MetroBass

Based on the industries theories around class d amplification have we succumbed to meritocracy when it comes to our sonic quality and tone?

You're against people choosing amps based on the amps' merits? What qualities should people be basing their decisions on? Popularity?

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by T. Alan Smith

I actually liked the way my SWR 350 sounded better than my MB LMII does.

Ah, but the voicings on the SWR 350 and the LMII are very different, having nothing to do with the amp section (which, I think, is a class AB and not a D on a LMII).

IMO, there will always be legitimate personal preference for traditional amplification products, both for live sound and home audio. Nothing wrong with that. I do not, however, believe that there is anything objectively wrong or even inferior about micro heads. They are simply something a little different.

[wmheilma]

I'll second the enthusiasm for Genz-Benz amps. I started using a Shuttle MAX 6.0 back in January and am still very happy with it. I did put my favorite preamp tube in the tube channel, but otherwise this amp works well for everything plus it is very light which is great at the end of a long gig.

[OmnitzGarima]

I don't have a classic amp to sell off, so I'm looking for new equipment regardless. The light weight is certainly appealing, but from what I've read about the sound it can be described in two ways - "sterile" or "clean". My primary goal is to amplify an upright bass as accurately as possible, I'm not interested in having the amp color the sound, so "clean" appeals to me. If my primary instrument was a bass guitar, I might be taking another course, but at the moment class D amps are at the top of my list. I have very little hands-on experience with them, though, so once I get out there and play more I might have a different opinion.

[Bassamatic]

There is nothing wrong with Class D - IF it is done right, like any technology. For low frequencies it is the best method, eliminating heat and many distortion problems.

But it has to be done right - the power supply has to be capable of providing the the enormous surges required, and converter and filter circuits must be well designed, and the parts of good quality. It gets harder and harder as the power goes up.

Just like any amps - you can have junk on one end and great products like the Powersoft PA amps on the other.

[bassplayer7770]

I'm using a new Class D power amp with my BBE BMAX, although I admit I've only had it a short time. So far, I'd say it's sufficiently loud, and I think it sounds quite good with my BMAX preamp. Definitely not thin or sterile, IMO.

[smogg]

"Class D Amps - Anyone else having second thoughts?"


Nope, no second thoughts at all.
Not only has my little 6lbs amp and barely 50lbs neo cab really helped by aging back, I'm still getting tone I like.
At my age there is no practical reason to go back to 50+lbs amps and 100+lbs cabs when I'm the only roadie I have.

[bruiser1964]

Is this not the same arument we get from audiophiles all the time? It's the gold interconnects or the cable or the valves from a Russian submarine... I'm sorry but for most of us who are gigging the subtleties of a pure valve amp over a hibrid or a ss are not as important as reliability, weight and an easy to dial in tone. My 2 pennies...

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by MetroBass

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm#2
http://www.audioholics.com/education...s-d-amplifiers

I know this is all old news, however, based on the surge of class d bass amps out there and all the hoopla surrounding the products, not to mention the $$$$ being spent on the crazy is it really the right thing to do as musicians? Based on the industries theories around class d amplification have we succumbed to meritocracy when it comes to our sonic quality and tone?
The two articles attached clearly delineate the shortcomings of class D amplification, but maybe we like just riding it out in the background with our light weight amps, blending in when possible and being the “popular” followers that we’re so use to being.
Personally, I have the same McIntosh tube amp and pre-amp stereo system I purchased in 1984, my Klipsch Forte’s and have never had a inclination to go out an purchase a new stereo system. So why do so many of us, join the popular crowd, toss or sell off our perfectly good classic amps and become followers of the class D craze? I can’t recall who first called them “sterile” on here, but that’s the best one word description I’ve heard.
Yes, I was once curious so I went out and tried many of the so called “leaders of the pack” and seriously can’t come up with one reason to own one except - they’re lightweight – but again, I guess that’s why I’m not popular! Don’t be fooled: Size does matter!

No second thoughts here.
I never liked them and don't do so now.
I've never heard one that i liked.
I'm tempted to get a WW ultra though...(they are class D?)

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by MetroBass

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm#2
http://www.audioholics.com/education...s-d-amplifiers

I know this is all old news, however, based on the surge of class d bass amps out there and all the hoopla surrounding the products, not to mention the $$$$ being spent on the crazy is it really the right thing to do as musicians? Based on the industries theories around class d amplification have we succumbed to meritocracy when it comes to our sonic quality and tone?
The two articles attached clearly delineate the shortcomings of class D amplification

Huh? Rod Elliot concludes his article with: "In conclusion, Class-D amplifiers have evolved a lot since they were first invented, achieving levels of performance similar to conventional amplifiers, and even better in some aspects, like an inherent low output impedance that allows effortless bass. All this, with the great advantage of high efficiency. Of course, only if they are properly designed."

[Burlington]

I love my Shuttle 9.0. The perfect tone IMHO.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by BassIan

A well-designed amplifier will sound good regardless of the topology. Choose your price point, weight, tone, and power to suit your preference, but don't miss out on potentially awesome equipment because of an ill-founded prejudice.

I think this statement hits the nail on the head. There are many ways to skin a cat, it's up to the designer of a product to pick the best way for their customer.

Incidently, there are good and bad linear amp designs too, and each topology of linear amp carries with it a unique set of trade-offs that must be considered.

With the advances being made in semiconductor technology, some issues that we have had to design around in the past have competely disappeared. This has given us the freedom to do things that me may have wanted to do all along but were unable to do for practical technical reasons.

[BigOldHarry]

I'm more concerned with reliability. I've played several class D amps in stores that sound dandy, and heard a few at shows... but I keep reading about folks having trouble with them, and my one buddy who actually bought one (a TC) had nothing but trouble with it. So I'm thinking I'll stick with my 30lb Ashdown for a while longer...

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by okcrum

Class D done right is fine. Genz-Benz seems to have it down the best of the bass amp makers, right now, and agedhorse is one helluva designer. The companies who are buying Pacific rim clone designs are the ones who'll be taking the big hits on their class D offerings. Sad to say, that includes some formerly revered names...

Thanks for the kind words okcrum.

Designing a product (any product) involves looking at the big picture, the whole picture, including the needs of the customer. It's a whole combinations of decisions that are made in the design process that gets us to the finish line. Everything in life is a tradeoff, choosing the best combination of tradeoffs for your application is what makes a better product. Some of this might involve using a more expensive component where it makes a difference and a less expensive component where it does not.

The definition of engineering is the design of a product using "trade-off" management rules. I still can't believe the number of product designers that do not get this simple principle.

[NineSpine]

After years of using all-tube amps, I now use an Orange Terror Bass. I am having absolutely zero second thoughts. I was mostly accustomed to using vintage tube amps, like my personal favorite: the Ampeg V4. The Orange Terror Bass, with the right combination of pedals in front of it, provides everything I could possible need for any style of music that I play.

In my experience (and that's all this is), the vast majority of people that crap on everything that isn't tube are the type of people who are more concerned with how they sound in their bedroom and how they look than how the music they are actually playing with other people sounds. I'm not just talking about tone. I find these people to have little concern for MUSIC, and tons of concern for their own materialistic self-gratification. Again, that is just my experience, and it means little by itself.

I've noticed a trend of gear replacing hard work, and while this may be a twinge off topic, I think it is worth noting that I've been seeing a large upswing in people who treat acquisition of gear as steps towards becoming a better musician. Instead of putting in some practice time, they buy a new pedal, or replace their tubes, and this quick gratification makes them feel as if they have made a step towards becoming a better bassist. These people, once again, tend to be the "GIVE ME TUBES OR GIVE ME DEATH" people. Of course, they are deluding themselves.

Just for the sake of safety: All I've stated is my opinion and my experience, as a former tube-nazi who refused to listen to what anyone else had to say.

[craig.p]

Tone I can fix. My main concern is reliability.

There's junk in the pipeline as a whole. Some manufacturers are injecting no junk (or only very little junk) into the pipeline. We know who they are. Some manufacturers are injecting significant junk into the pipeline. We know who they are, too.

If I buy anything with a switching power supply or a non-class-AB output stage in the foreseeable future, it'll be in the context of always having a proven amp on hand as a standby -- one with an analog power supply and class-AB output. Once the pipeline as a whole is cleared of junk, I may change my mind. My gut feeling tells me we're looking at 2-3 years for these designs to shake out, and by that I mean all the way down to the mid-to-low end.

This sea change we're going through is similar to the tube-to-transistor transition we went through around fifty years ago. The proper way to do things just needs to become mainstream, and everything will be okay. We're just not there yet.

Revision control is the real fly in the ointment now. If the first units of the 5-ounce 2-kilowatt Crocophile Gargantuator were junk but the later ones were not, then that should be identifiable via a revision stamp on the back panel. All right, all right, you all can stop laughing now. All I'm trying to say is that during this learning phase, we can expect manufacturers to be making constant improvements, and that we ought to be able to see where in that process a particular amp sample is at, in terms of a revision. In the computer world, revisions look something like A01, D5, E3, N1, and so on, and a computer assembly is never identified by its part number alone but rather by its part number and revision level. In the MI amp and SR worlds, we need this mechanism bad, especially right now while the boat's rocking. But you try to explain revision control to most people and they give you the ten-thousand-mile stare.